NIMH Tools of Success

I've been contemplating NIMH on the side of my academic career for several years now; in most of my 'english' classes (esp. in my Film & Literature and Children's Literature courses) I've had issues and stuff from the movie somewhere in the background of my mind. As such, in my final year of university I believe that it is fitting that I use all of the expertise I've gleaned and create a review paper for this. Here are the basic aspects I will be looking at:

Dialogue and Character Interaction
Characterization
Plot
Music and SFX
Animation and VFX
Significance in Contemporary Society and the Post-Modern

As well as some other up-in-the-air ideas. This thread is something that I hope the NIMH community can use to discuss these ideas. Should there be any significant academic discussion, chances are that I will be incorporating it into my paper (with appropriate credit given, of course!). The paper, which Simon has expressed interest in hosting on Thorn Valley, is an ambitious project (currently I estimate it at approx. 15 MSW pages, but it will likely be more!) and so discussion is as important to me as I hope the article will be interesting to you.

So...discuss!

EDIT

In retrospect I have decided to do this in four main sections, not including the introduction and conclusion. This may change, but they are split into the following

Introduction
--Purpose: To discuss the NIMH series and its constituents in an academic light
----It may be that we may establish a certain alternate canon in this paper; this is neither the intent nor purpose of this paper, but it is a possibility so interpret it as you will
--Overview the main works which are looked at here: Mrs Frisby and the Rats of NIMH, The Secret of NIMH, their respective sequels, and the unofficial sequels written by the fans (including Second in Command.
--Basic Summaries
----Mrs. Frisby: Mrs Frisby, in order to protect her son Timothy, must undergo an adventure to move her home out of the path of Farmer Fitzgibbons' plow. She enlists the aid of owls, crows, and genetically altered rats from NIMH.
----Secret of NIMH: Mrs Brisby must seek the aid of the mysterious rats in Farmer Fitzgibbons' rosebush in order to move her family - including her sick son, Timothy - out of danger, and discovers a magical history along the way.
----Racso: Timothy Frisby meets Racso, a young city rat bent on educating himself with the Rats of NIMH, on his way to school in Thorn Valley. With Racso's help, the Rats of NIMH must fight the encroaching human businessmen.
----SoN2: Timothy Brisby, prophecised as a saviour by Nicodemus, joins the Rats of Thorn Valley to learn and live up to his destiny. After meeting an educated mouse named Jenny, Timothy is whisked away on an adventure with an unexpected twist.
----The Rats of Thorn Valley and Second in Command: Mes Brisby and her family are invited to join the rats in Thorn Valley for a vacation; when Jonathan Brisby returns alive, he struggles to cope with being Justin's second-in-command and re-adjusting to life as a father and husband.
----The Secret of the Stone: Mysterious mice arrive at the Fitzgibbon farm and Mrs Brisby is attacked. Her children join her on an adventure to Thorn Valley, only to find that her assailants have already arrived there! Now Mrs Brisby must protect herself and her children from the mysterious Mice of NIMH
--Brief comment on the original NIMH experiments
----The original experiments did not work much like O'Brien and Bluth portrayed, but they aren't unbelievable. The original NIMH experiments measured social behaviours of rats, and observed the effects that the 'utopian' environment had on the rats behaviours. The experiments proposed in O'Brien's novel and Bluth's film adaptation are not, however, beyond belief; it is common for animals to be used as test subjects based on biological similarity to humans (guinea pigs are, perhaps, the most genetically similar). Thus the two artists in question (our author and our director) provide the first requisite of fantasy: making the impossible believable.

A Look at Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH
A Look at The Secret of NIMH
A Look at the 'Canon' Sequels
--Secret of NIMH 2
--Racso and the Rats of NIMH
A Look at the Fan Sequels
--The Rats of Thorn Valley (by Paul S. Gibbs)
--The Secret of the Stone (by Procyon)
Tying it all together - Themes and Continuity

This may change over time, but this is what I have for now.

I'm afraid everything I just wrote... was erased by the quickly moving fingers of a mentally challenged little boy. I might rewrite that nice long post later when I'm not so angry, but right now here's all I have to say.

The book was better than the first movie, the second movie sucked, I didn't read Rocso or the Rats of Thorn Valley, and The Secret of the Stone should have been the true sequel to the movie.

The experiments of the movie were real, and were performed at about the same time the movie was released. If you want my ideas on what the injections were in the movie, go here: http://www.thornvalley.com/commons/forum/viewtopic.php?t=993

Have a good flippin' day.

Oh god, I know how that feels D: Doesn't it just make you want to hit something? Other than the kid, of course; if you do that I'll SMITE YOU WITH DUST BUNNIES!

The book was better than the first movie, the second movie sucked, I didn't read Rocso or the Rats of Thorn Valley, and The Secret of the Stone should have been the true sequel to the movie.

Hmm...I wouldn't agree that the book was any better or worse than the movie, merely a different interpretation. That's all any movies ever are: interpretations. There were aspects I disliked about both - for research I spent 4 hours at the library this morning reading the book and documenting what it does for me, and even checked it out for further research - and I plan to cover those.

I do agree, however, that SoN2 was tripe. I support the wanted poster on Timmy's wall in Thorn Valley wholeheartedly! As for Secret of the Stone, well...I don't know that it should be the sequel. Don't get me wrong, I thought it was one of the best fan-continuations I'd ever read, but I just can't bring myself to accept fan-sequels as canon. Not yet, anyways; that may change with time.

The experiments of the movie were real, and were performed at about the same time the movie was released. If you want my ideas on what the injections were in the movie, go here: http://www.thornvalley.com/commons/forum/viewtopic.php?t=993

Oh yes, I'm well aware that the experiments are based on the experiments conducted by the real-life National Institute for Mental Health. I plan to do some basic research into that, perhaps even make a brief prologue after my intro but before I delve into Mrs. Brisby and the Rats of NIMH. I may give it its own section or tag it on to the end of the intro; but no matter how, it -is- going into the paper.

Have a good flippin' day.

Aww, don't be too mad at the kid ;D He's just being a kid, even if he has mental challenges.

I don't think you understand just how long this post was, it was at the very least three times as long as your reply, maybe four.

liUpdateli

The structure outlined above will remain the same, but I think I will be devoting more time to each of the 'sequels'. The two fan-quels are too long to be minimized in my work, I have far too much to address in SoN2, and the library has yet to receive my order for Racso, which (I am told) is a novel as long as or longer than the original. I have no intention of reading M-T, since that is getting a bit too outside of the address of this essay (much of this is focused on the animal kingdom).

Since no else has really started a conversation here, I might as well. What did you think of the music in the second movie? There was only one song I enjoyed out of the whole thing, and that was the last song: You'll Be Happy. I liked it because of the insane vibe, it seems like something I would sing for fun lol.

You mean Martin's song, right? "Just Say Yes"?

One of the things I'll be touching on in the films are the use of audio, visual, and how synchronous and contextually appropriate they are. Independently that song is particularly interesting; it has a very Monty Python-esque vibe to it (likely due to input and/or the voicing from Eric Idle), and is quite honestly the only really enjoyable part of the film. It is over the top, keeps throwing images at you, spectacularly coloured (for its context), and the score is hilarious. In context, however, I disapprove heartily with its use, mainly because I disapprove entirely of the making Martin a villain in the way they did. Having a villainous Martin could have gone over very well if they'd actually taken the time to flesh out his character, and this song reflects the very slapped-on nature of Martin's SoN2 characterization. It is random, out of place for the film, and reminiscent of a spectacularly idiotic plot twist that makes no sense in context of the film.

Unlike "Just Say Yes", though, the music from the rest of the movie is not fun when taken out of context. "Magic Mystery Show" just makes me want to shove their sheet music down their throats, especially since the character of Cecil is a pointless insert. The lyrics are ridiculous, and the concept itself is not very well-thought out. And I will do what Doug himself never did, and shout, "A FOREST-CRITTER CREDIT CARD?!?!?!"

The other songs weren't much better. "I Will Show the World" is incredibly emo in the beginning, and the performances (with a possible exception from the second singer, who makes an admirable attempt for his age at the time) are just terrible. The first Timmy cannot sing for peanuts, and Ralph Macchio has very little control over his voice. Clearly the man was not meant for voice-acting. He should take some lessons from Rob Paulsen.

"Come Make the Most Of Your Life" is...confusing and contradictory. It establishes impossibilities - the line that sticks out to me the most is "there's candy galore/and it's all made of cheese" - while simultaneously trying and failing to establish the character sheet for Timothy. The music itself was not very catchy, and were it not for the above line I would have forgotten it entirely.

The Crowning Moment of Fail for the musical score is, however, "All I Had is Gone". I cannot begin to describe how stereotypically emo that is for story heroes, especially since Timmy deigns to learn nothing from it, it has no purpose other than to be a failed attempt at an Award Bait song, and any pathos it establishes is wiped away from the viewer when Cecil comes in. It doesn't help, either, that Ralph Macchio has yet to learn how to hold a note, something even I can do in the scale of that song.

All in all, I felt the music was supernaturally bad, stemming from the forgettable scores and lyrics, badly written lyrics, bad singers, and the fact that they were mostly all Big-Lipped Alligator Moments, contributing nothing to the story other than to make it into a musical with the erroneous belief that musicals are naturally more entertaining than decent movies. "Just Say Yes" is no exception, but is more tolerable when taken and listened to out of context, even being downright fun due to its insanity. Really, though, it does nothing to save the movie from the rest of its musical score.

I agree, it didn't save anything, and is only entertaining when taken out of context. The song with the candy cheese was the one I hated the most out of all the music within the movie; I mean c'mon! Why would candy be made out of cheese?!

Doug suggests cheese worthers, but I agree with Rob in my "what the heck" reaction. In addition to these songs, however, there is a background score, and it was forgettable in the extreme. I had a look at the official soundtrack, and listened to a few of the non-Song scores, and quite frankly...they're terrible. Sure, in context they're okay (borderline), but out of context they just sound bad. "The Hawk Attack", as an example, does not establish the panic of two mice being attacked by one of their natural predators. It's just...meh in the movie, which when taken out of context becomes very, very bad.

Other scores are no better; I cannot remember what the title is for the piece when Muriel and Floyd fall down the elevator shaft ("Floyd and Muriel Get the Shaft", was it? Terrible pun.), but that was equally forgettable.

I suppose that, were it taken out of the NIMH continuity and became its own independent film, there would be no memories of SoN2. The only reason that most people remember NIMH 2 is because of how bad it is compared to the original; it took what most viewers saw as a masterpiece and turned it into a franchise of forgettable-ness. Had it been its own independent film (and actually strove to be so by giving its characters original names and, perhaps, a less holey plot) it would have simply been a film that nobody remembers. As is, everybody remembers it because we NIMH fans just will not let up on how much of an abomination it is.

No we won't, and probably never will! That movie took one of my favorite stories, and raped it until it couldn't even whimper. Excuse my rather graphic depiction there, but it's the truth; I HATE the second movie with a burning passion! I wish I could hunt the writer down for even suggesting that his story should be published, let alone made into a sequel for what is arguably the best animated film of all time.

I'm not even going to bother with looking at the soundtrack, my eyes already burn thanks to watching the movie, I don't want my ears to bleed too.

While your terminology could have been phrased more appropriately for a PG forum, I agree for the most part. But this is a thread I made for academic discussion of the series, not simply complaining about the DTV sequel. If you're wanting to have a more liberal discussion of the second film as an atrocity (which it is), then you would be better served looking up the NIMH 2 thread; if there isn't one, then make one. Your opinion is respected, but without further elaboration is best placed in another thread.

EDIT

I have changed the original parameters slightly. Rather than simply addressing the all-encompassing idea of "Audio" (and "Visuals"), I will be discussing "Music and SFX" (and "Animation and VFX"). In addition, I have refined what is currently the final section to look more specifically at themes and inter-source continuity - that is to say the differing themes seen between the different arts and the differing continuities between the films and books.

The visual effects of the first movie were simply spectacular, especially for the time frame they came from. The 1980s weren't exactly known for their special effects, though even now I would consider TSoN to have an over the top visual presentation when compared to any number of animated films. Then when you take into account that everything had to be hand-drawn and set into motion with technology that would make a modern day producer cry, it clearly takes the cake.

The only few other movies that could compare with TSoN are Disney movies, which used similar, if not the same execution process in animation. The closest of the Disney films in terms of visual effects in my opinion would have to be "Bambi". They painted over multiple sheets of plexi-glass to give their backgrounds an astonishing depth factor, which looks to be the same method used in TSoN. They would then lay their characters in-front of the glass and take individual pictures for each frame of the movie; quite a lengthy process, but well worth the time.

I agree entirely, and would be interested to see many modern animators' opinions on SoN. One thing I found fascinating about it is the glow effects; if I recall, Bluth said that they did that through lights on the backdrops and using translucent colours along with opaque versions of those colours. For its time, as you say, it had spectacular visuals. Between the lighting, the detail of the animation (barring a few minor errors and one major one), the movie had an almost ethereal feel to it.

The thing about Disney movies is that they have a lot more financial backing. While I wouldn't dream of minimizing the depth and detail to most Disney films spawned during the Disney Renaissance, I feel that the achievement is much more admirable on the part of Bluth & co., who did the work they did from basically within their garage and with very limited finances. To that end I would go so far as to say that, given the circumstances and the social success of SoN, the Disney films are not as hypothetically successful as Bluth's was. Admittedly it was eclipsed by E.T., which was the reason for why NIMH did so poorly in how much money it made, and I feel it would have been a much more widely acclaimed film had it not been overshadowed so easily.

It was just bad timing on the release and not enough money to advertise, which sucks, because this movie deserved so much more attention than what it was given. Like you said: "Disney films are not as hypothetically successful as Bluth's " yet it is still not widely known.

And for the record, I don't actually like E.T. I thought it was kinda dumb...

Mi dispiace for my absence; exam season has arrived, and I also had a series of papers to submit to each of my profs.

It was just bad timing on the release and not enough money to advertise, which sucks, because this movie deserved so much more attention than what it was given. Like you said: "Disney films are not as hypothetically successful as Bluth's " yet it is still not widely known.

Interestingly enough, the advertisement issue was a major factor in the financial success of the films. In terms of the quality of animation and story, I personally think that Secret of NIMH is up at the top amongst some other Bluth films (pre Rock-a-Doodle) and certainly on par with most Disney films during the Renaissance; in fact, assuming it survives any impending edits (as I'm still primarily in the organizational stages of the paper's outline), I have already planned to make a brief comparison to other films that were released afterwards. Nothing major, of course; the focus of the paper is focused mainly on tying all the NIMH canons together and discussing them amongst themselves, but I would never be so arrogant as to compare these components only with themselves. Some NIMH-external works will make their way in there somewhere.

Needless to say, Bluth & co. learned from their advertising mistake when the time came for The Land Before Time, especially once Stephen Spielberg got involved. While I don't remember seeing exceptional amounts of advertisement for TLBT (those of you older than me have a better basis for that), I think that the name 'Spielberg' on the cover was an advertisement in itself.

Speaking in terms of quality and depth, I think it is widely acknowledged that The Secret of NIMH and other films directed by Bluth are the reason for the Renaissance of Animation; it is at this point that quality films began production again (the 95% Fresh rating on RottenTomatoes is definitely saying something for the film), and it is this that caused Disney to restart their quality animation. With some exceptions, Disney's films had not been especially successful before Oliver & Company, whose darker tone we may attribute to the success of NIMH's more serious storyline.

UPDATE

Once exams are done, I will be attempting to get interviews with professors at the local universities/colleges. My own university has a specific scholarship dedicated to children's literature, and I know a couple of the profs that instruct it.

Next update should involve a more detailed outline than what is given here.

Good luck!

UPDATE

While I've actually written far more than I've shown in this recent update, I have updated the first section: the Introduction. In it is a brief outline of my aim, a (very brief) overview/outline of each of the main works I'll be discussing, and a comment on the plausibility of and relationship between the experiments as represented by O'Brien and Bluth and the actual experiments.

There is definitely more to come; I have at least 10 pages of written stuff in outline form, and I think I'm only half done.

Will you be posting your paper here when it's complete?

In the past I've discussed with Simon the prospect of hosting the paper on the Thorn Valley website. Hopefully that won't change, but as I've said in the first post this is an ambitious project - given my work and attempts to find a different place of work, it could be several months before this is finished. With luck I'll be able to finish it within a year ;D

I should have the next part up in a bit. But for now there is a work schedule calling to me.

The Gibbs' sequel is a great piece of fanfiction. It was well written and had a lot of heart and soul put into it. I recently read "Second in Command" as well. I found myself relating to Jonathan as I myself have gone through serious depression and done stupid things that hurt those around me. I wouldn't be surprised if Gibbs himself was depressed.

Having said that, I don't think it could work as a NIMH sequel. It would probably be more credible than NIMH 2 (I've never seen it), but it simply doesn't complement the characters from the original film well. Jonathan having everyone lie to his wife is far-fetched. How would he even know his wife would find out about the rats? They let Jonathan go on his secret mission and didn't try to stop him? I could tell Jonathan was motivated by his depression, but why not just tell his wife? She was obviously going to find out where he's been when he got back. Did he expect no backlash? In the film, Nicodemus actually thought Jonathan was dead. He wrote it in his book and narrated the fact to himself: "Farewell, my friend." Yet he knew he "wasn't quite dead."

You should consider adding in "The Brisby Beginning." I believe it fits in perfectly as a prequel to the film and it's also heartwarming. I believe the same author is also writing a sequel as well and it's looking promising, if a bit flawed.

I think you should keep the novel canon, the film canon, and the fanfiction canon separate. I don't know what your thesis is or really what you plan to gain from doing this, but best of luck to you.

I don't think I've started off with a thesis, actually, but I ended up with one that can't be isolated to a simple line of text. My thesis is heavily integrated into the work, and only becomes painfully clear towards the end. Not to spoil much, but the gist of the thesis is "There is a series of clear connections between each of these works, and the strength of these connections has a significant impact on the quality." This actually ties into what you were saying about "The Rats of Thorn Valley" not being a true sequel.

I agree entirely that RoTV could not be a published official sequel (far too many liberties, but I suppose that didn't stop the official sequel itself...), but there is one that I think does have the true potential for a sequel (and is currently my favourite and one of the works I will be discussing): "The Secret of the Stone". It's a marvelous work, and is hosted on Thorn Valley. I won't spoil much, especially since there's an extremely in-depth storyline that I'd spoil by mentioning even a proponent of it, but it allows for the film's canon events to be unchanged/uninfluenced, while still taking a wonderful direction in plot twists and plots themselves (in a multi-dimensional meaning).

But I digress. One of the things you noted was that I "should keep the novel canon, the film canon, and the fanfiction canon separate". In fact you are addressing one of the things that this paper discusses, which is the fact that in and of themselves the novel and book and their 'official' sequels have their own 'official' canon (though, as I discuss in the paper, the 'official' NIMH DTV sequel should be considered something entirely different), but that fanfiction canon (i.e. 'fanon') is often an extension of the original canon, and cannot be considered entirely separate. The events of the originals lead into or inspire the events of the fanon, so while the original may be considered on its own, it is difficult and, I think, erroneous to consider fanon on its own. Certainly fanon is an entity separate from canon, but cannot be considered without reference to the canon.

My aim for this paper, outside of academia, is simply because I like NIMH and would like to see a proper academic discussion of it within its own universe(s). Every paper that I saw in EBSCO while I was in university was mainly discussing a single aspect of the novel/film (mostly the latter), sometimes in relation to one another, but never considering the overall sphere of literature that came with it. I want to explore this, and even though it will probably be a boring read (I hope not, but academia tends to boredom for the average civilian; I can prove it mathematically xD), it's something that I feel is lacking in academia these days. A Newberry novel, one of the most celebrated of all time, and its cult classic adaptation, also very celebrated by the majority of those who saw it, deserves far more attention than it is given. There are also works out there - such as RaTV and SotS - that are wonderful and deserve to be given academic praise for their efforts; the not-so-wonderful ones I will not discuss, if only because I feel ridicule or public criticism might stop them from writing, and I like it when writers learn and improve over the years. But, to wrap up what is clearly a tl;dr post, I will say that my aim is discussed in the paper, if only because my aim is the paper.

What I meant by "I think you should keep the novel canon, the film canon, and the fanfiction canon separate" is that you shouldn't be pointing a finger at someones fanfiction and say that it's a true sequel. Part of the magic of NIMH is its ambiguity, which is why I recently started reading fanfiction to see what others have come up with. If we say that one sequel is the true sequel, people won't be willing to fill in the blanks anymore, which ruins the fun.

I mentioned "The Brisby Beginning" because it's a piece of fanfiction that ties up the characters from the film very well and still leaves the film ambiguous. While I think it's great that you want to shed light on these works, pointing a finger at a piece of fanfiction and calling "the one true sequel" isn't the way to do it, in my opinion. I'm not accusing you of doing this yet, but it's something you should avoid.

Needless to say, Bluth & co. learned from their advertising mistake when the time came for The Land Before Time, especially once Stephen Spielberg got involved. While I don't remember seeing exceptional amounts of advertisement for TLBT (those of you older than me have a better basis for that), I think that the name 'Spielberg' on the cover was an advertisement in itself.

Actually Bluth learned that lesson earlier with their film after NIMH, An American Tailone of the first films to produced under Spielberg's company Amblin which went on to create films like Balto and great animated series like Tiny Toons, Animanicas, and Freakazoid. Tail was also the highest grossing animated film at the time.

The story about how Steven became associated is through the late great Jerry Goldsmith. Goldsmith at the time was the scoring for a Spielberg / Tobe Hopper collaboration "Poltergeist". Goldsmith told Spielberg about an animated film he had just scored. Steven saw the film, loved it, and immediately called Bluth and Gary Goldman. During the meeting Spielberg said he wanted to bring back the golden age of animation, a goal similar to Don and Gary's.
After Land Before Time I guess Bluth wanted to strike out on his own again and not be kept in Spielberg's shadow. Sullivan Bluth Studios was set up and their first film All Dogs Go To Heaven was released. While not exactly a box office success, it found its audience on home video (similarly what happen to NIMH, both films were produced under United Artists). After that with lack of funds and poor scripts Sullivan Bluth Studios closed down and Don and Gary headed to 20th Century Fox.

Advertisement was definitely the key issue with NIMH. United Artists, while producing the Bond films and having success with those, some of its other backed projects hadn't been as successful. It was in 1980 when the United Artists produced film Heaven's Gate became one of the biggest box office failures in movie history. While can debated if the actual story / movie was any good, it was director's Michael Cimino unnecessary perfectionism that led to an out of control production. UA eventually fell out of being one of the top movie companies and was bought by MGM.

So its 1982: E.T. has dominated the box office for the summer, Disney releases Tron and United Artists is about to release its first animated film. This was before the arrival of overseas animation so really there were three categories for animation: Disney / Saturday Morning Cartoons / Independent (ex: Ralph Bakshi)
To add to that NIMH wasn't a blockbuster release, it was only select theaters.
It really wasn't until Amblin / Dreamworks that a company could successfully compete with Disney (commercially that is). Even when Disney got back on its feet other companies began to mass produce animated features (some were successful but most were failures e.g. 20th Century Fox animated films)
Nowadays the market for animation is all over the place especially with the release of overseas animation in the United States. Disney has really fallen from its high throne after its decade of direct-to-video releases. They recapture their old glory with Fantasia 2000 (the original Fantasia is one of my favorite films) but it didn't quite live up to its predecessor's name with its celebrity guest appearances (especially Bette Midler referring to Salvador Dali as the "melted clock guy").
Just a quick mention: John Pomeroy, an old friend of Bluth & Goldman whom he left Disney with, remained with them until the closing of Sullivan Bluth Studios, was an animator for the "Firebird Suite Sequence" of Fantasia 2000.

The high throne once occupied by Disney now belongs to its sister company Pixar. Here you have animators and technicians from Apple teaming with advertisement execs from Disney. Perfect formula for box success. And on the whole Pixar has produced great films (well most of them, some were duds but that can be debated).
But now it seems like we're back to era that NIMH was released in. While granted tons of animation exists out there the ones that are given full attention and awards are Pixar films.

Wow, I wrote a lot