An issue that's been on my mind

Okay Who here has heard of Mary Sues?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue[]http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

I know They're annoying perfect characters. But there's been an issue that's plaguining many fandoms. (and I'm thankful that it hasn't hit NIMH yet.

Basically a person starts a community dedicated to mocking OCs they think are 'Mary Sues' and they get some friends to comb the web and submit a story for 'sporking' or mocking. and it seems that many go overboard and mock every female OC they see (females get it the hardest) and generally treat the author like some kind of freak and rip them to shreds. They claim that they' credit them' but who wants to have their story ripped to shreds by a bunch of self proclaimed 'sue experts'

an example:
http://phantomsues.livejournal.com/[]http://phantomsues.livejournal.com/


I know Mary Sues are annoying but... this is overboard. I'm tired of this trend of cruelty on the web where people feel that young inexperienced authors desereve to be spat upon , mocked and treated like idiots.

also I think it's worth mentioning that many fanfic authors who use ocs have started out with a 'Sue' But the character grew and develoepd as the author did. when I wrote my first NIMH famfic at the age of 10 or eleven I probbaly wrote one in my series of script format fanfics that (thankfully) got lost with the crashing of my ancient computer.


These people need to remember that their targets are human beings as well and they don't deserve to be treated as human. A true Sue is written by soemone who refuses to listen to any constructive crit or suggestions and I don't know about you but when someone comes at me calling my character an 'aboomantion' and treating me like dirt on the ground I'm not going to be all that inclined to listen to their advice.


As annoying as it is whenb a person gives constructive crit and the author whines 'you're mean!' people should remember that calling someone an 'idiot' sugegsting that they should just go 'play 52 pick up in a busy freeway' ACTUALLY is mean and as far as I'm concerned not at all funny.
A hint if you sugegst some changes in a friendly way to someone who you think is a writing a major sue' then as long as you're civil they can't really say you flamed them.

and what I like about teh NIMH fandom is the closeness of it and the tolereance. and i'm sincerly hoping that I will NEVER see a NIMHsues community like the one I linked to.

United we Stand, Divided we fall.


I'm sorry if I'm breaking the rules I just wanted to express mys elf before I boil over.

Just giving my two cents

On the flip side of the coin, I have seen many authors take any kind of criticism as an attack on them personally, whether the criticism is constructive or not. While on my websites I want to encourage discussion that is relevant and helpful, and I will delete posts that resort to ad-hominems and other dumb methods of criticism, I do believe that a thick skin is needed when posting any work up for the public to view. An author can't expect to be heaped with praise, or even be paid attention to if they post stuff. Nor do they get to choose their audience once the cat is out of the bag.

For that reason, I don't particularly care about sites that criticize fics for Mary Sues or whatever. They have their freedom of speech, and so long as they don't resort to libel or other illegal forms of speech, I have no particular problem with their existence. I would like to think that the people whose opinions I care about can form their own opinions. Yes, they should be civil, but it's a lot easier to control your own response to them than it is to control the nay-sayers. And in the end, you'll earn more respect from those that matter if you don't waste your time attacking them back.

There are plenty of Mary Sues in NIMH fandom. I know of several. But I don't feel it to be in good taste to 'out' them, nor do I feel it helpful. Mary Sues are a symptom of lazy writing and thinking, and I'd rather "attack" the root cause than a symptom in my own critiques, with the goal of helping one become a better writer.

Anything that reduces the amount of bad fiction in the world is good, IMO. I've seen officially licensed and published works that are little more than fanfiction (Star Trek gets plenty of these). It can even happen to original works, especially when the author has enough power over their publisher (from writing enough bestsellers) to attain: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProtectionFromEditors[]http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProtectionFromEditors

As to Mary Sues in particular, well, nobody (Other than the person who wrote such) wants to read about those sorts of characters. So if you do write such, perhaps posting it for world+dog to see on the net is a bad idea. It would be better to have a friend or maybe even an English teacher give it a read first.

And if you can't live with other people posting harsh and demeaning criticism, you definitely want to stay off the internet. Cause that will happen, if anyone at all notices your work. Nice? Probably not so much, but you just have to live with it.

I understand that but when the community leader decides to dub characters they don't like FROM THE SHOW written by the original show producer himself. They're not sues.
Example:
One of my favorite DP characters gets called a Canon!Sue because she's an unstable clone of the main character who has a mind of her own and is trying to get acceptance from her creator who using her (that's not new Vlad uses everybody) The network cut off show production in the third season giving the creator an ultimatum to wrap up the series and thus didn't give him a chance to go more into her story.

The main characters two best friends never seemed to trust her much, understandable considering that she originally tried to turn Danny in to please her father and allow him to get the DNA that would save her.

Then again this is the same community that at one point dubbed two of the MAIN characters of the show as 'Sues'

Anyway I don't buy the idea of Canon!Sues much (unless it's an EXTREME example). Why Because say this person so far has written a great series and all the sudden a character pops up or changes in a way that the reader isn't to wild about.
Never mind that the creator has written something pretty darn good so far. 'SUE!'
I understand a case of'another (lousy) writer gets added onto the crew and things go bad from there. but if this is the guy who's put a pretty good thing out and it's just a character you don't really like but the writer and the characters do-or are at least okay with -just come out and say 'I don't like 'em that much.

It's a sliding slope from there. NIMH examples: is Jonathan a Canon!Stu cause lots of people seem to like him. Of course not (though NIMH 2 kind of went a little far with the statue and the prophecy They could have set up the plot they were going for better....)

Its' kind of annoying to have people pointing at every character they dislike and shouting 'Canon Sue/Stu'

Characters you don't like are 'The Scrappy', or if the author gives them too much screentime, 'The Wesley'. A Mary Sue causes the story universe to revolve around themselves. Perhaps pointing this out to the uninformed would be a start. That's usually disastrous, but it ain't the only way you can write a lame character by any means.

If you need an example of a Canon Sue, go read David Weber's Honor Harrington novels. When he let John Ringo (IIRC) play in his story world, we got the raging Sueness of Victor Cachat.

Jonathan Brisby wouldn't even come close to being a Canon Sue. It's hard to even find him annoying given that he's dead for the entire story. Between the fact that the rats are a very small community, and Jonathan's truly heroic assistance in their escape, and the later issue of him dying in their service to further their Plan... Someone like that really would be that revered by the rats.

What NIMH II? I wish they had made a sequel.[=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DisContinuity]What NIMH II? I wish they had made a sequel.

Mostly, it sounds like this LJ community has a lot of very uninformed people making judgements.

Anyway I don't buy the idea of Canon!Sues much (unless it's an EXTREME example). Why Because say this person so far has written a great series and all the sudden a character pops up or changes in a way that the reader isn't to wild about.
Never mind that the creator has written something pretty darn good so far. 'SUE!'
I understand a case of'another (lousy) writer gets added onto the crew and things go bad from there. but if this is the guy who's put a pretty good thing out and it's just a character you don't really like but the writer and the characters do-or are at least okay with -just come out and say 'I don't like 'em that much.

Mary Sue is a convenient label with a very rough definition, and all of the subtypes are based off that rough definition. As the TV Tropes articles mention, about the same time Canon Sue became a popular way of defining someone that fits more accurately under the Wesley trope, the umbrella of Mary Sue-isms started to get blurry. However, if your readers dislike a character that you like, then it might be worth trying to find out what, specifically, they don't like about the character. While the character and story is ultimately yours, and you can disagree with anyone's assessment of it, it may provide some insight into ways you can improve the character's characterization. You may find that the character seems to be able to conveniently solve problems that would ordinarily be baffling to others, or seems to never have a hard time with anything, or just plain comes across wrong. A good writer will always find out the why's of someone's reaction rather than becoming defensive.

BTW, if you'd like to improve your characterization, the best book I've found on the subject is Orson Scott Card's [i]Characters and Viewpoint[/i][=http://www.amazon.com/Elements-Writing-Fiction-Characters-Viewpoint/dp/0898799279]Orson Scott Card's [i]Characters and Viewpoint[/i]. I highly recommend it.

Jonathan Brisby wouldn't even come close to being a Canon Sue. It's hard to even find him annoying given that he's dead for the entire story. Between the fact that the rats are a very small community, and Jonathan's truly heroic assistance in their escape, and the later issue of him dying in their service to further their Plan... Someone like that really would be that revered by the rats.

I know I said I wouldn't out anyone, but since Paul S. Gibbs has departed this earthly sphere, I don't feel particularly bad bringing it up. You could make the argument that his interpretation of Jonathan is a Canon Sue (or more accurately a Possession Sue). While I feel he manages to avoid the worst of the Mary Sue tropes, and Jonathan remains a likable character overall, it does feel sometimes that the things that happen to Jonathan seem rather convenient, especially in Second in Command (how can one mouse attract lithatli much drama?).

One could also make the argument that I play a Canon Sue on NIMHmuck (heck, I'll admit; it's sometimes hard to play Timothy libecauseli he's my favorite character). Again, I hope I'm not litooli lazy in how I portray him, but I know that I'll reach into the cliche bin as a crutch at times.

Well, it's fanfiction, so it sure ain't a 'Canon Sue'. But yes, I suppose you could make a case out of it. It's not clear cut by any means, especially since Gibbs did try to make Jonathan somewhat less than perfect. He does undergo some character development, something that Mary Sues tend to avoid like the plague. And since we're splitting hairs, simply being the focus of the action isn't really enough to classify a character as a Sue. They have to be the focus of all attention in defiance of any sort of logic. I don't think that really is the case here.

That said, I think maybe that he could've made it less easy for Jonathan to repair his relationship with Elizabeth. They did seem to get back together awfully quickly. Though given that her lifespan is quite short (before the NIMH treatments were available anyways), maybe that explains some of it. Still, that'd be my main concern with Gibbs' handling of Jonathan.

:D Thanks for your opinions I like hearing other people's opinions . I understand what you mean and see your point.

I have to admit while I tend to be a patient and open minded reviewer there are some things that irk me sometimes. I do know there are Mary Sues, I also know as a writer of OCs myself creating OCs has become a difficult process (to write them well)

I also must confess my pet peeve in fanfic is when writers butcher one of the existing female leads and love interests so that they're character will seem like the only one for a certain canon character.

IN DP a lot o people bashed Sam Manson ,Danny's best friend and love interest as 'pyscho-possessive', or just 'teh creepy ebul goffik gurl" which makes me roll my eyes every time.... you ever see that in NIMH fanfic I haven't yet (thank goodness)

So are you guys saying Mrs. Brisby is a Mary Sue.

Is a Mary Sue a girl-next-door

Like my ex-girlfriend who was a Mary Sue, she had her bratty moments. I think Mary Sue's have to be virgins. That makes me think about what Jonathan and his wife were like in the mouse-sheets. Brisby put out for Justin in the movie. She also was quite bratty in leading on Jeremy, and seemed to cry to get her way. I think the treatment of Jeremy was very wrong. She flirted with Justin and Jeremy to get what she wanted. Think about it, Jeremy saved her meds. He saved her from Dragon. He went to protect her children. He brought her to the owl. He even got her string.

She did nothing for him except gnaw his strings loose. I mean, what kind of girl does that?

So are you guys saying Mrs. Brisby is a Mary Sue.

I don't recall anyone saying that. I know I didn't.

BTW: if you're wondering what a Mary Sue is, try this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

OK, if no one is accusing Brisby of being a Mary Sue, then why has it been brought to attention on this forum?

Also, have people here named Mrs. Brisby "Elizabeth"?

I guess that's because of Elizabeth Hartman.

Yeah, her name's either Emily or Elizabeth or Eileen.

I brought it to attention because in other fandoms certain elite groups of fans are coming together and making it hard for ANYONE to write an OC because every time they see one in a story that had a few mistakes they automatically declare it an OC and label the author a bad author.


It's not fair
It's annoying and I brought it to attention because I'm really hoping the 'OC writer vs self proclaimed "sue Hunter" wars don't split up the NIMH community the way they're affecting other Fandoms

From what I can see, a good deal of the problem is that people in these fandoms consider themselves elite in the first place. Senority can be a factor, but unless they wrote the subject itself then they need to stop. When someone takes on power as what they think is their right, it will lead to trouble. One of my experiences in this is when you rewright canon events, and story buffs jump all over them. People need to give constructive criticism, not destructive.

an d trouble is if you tell this one group (PhantomSues) to leave your stories alone they label you a 'fanbrat'

anybody who defends teh people Sue communities mock seems to become blacklisted as a "Sue-Author' or friend of a 'Sue-author'
I got so fed up with that I wrote a little bit of Satire:
It's really sarcastic though




Everytime i see someone declaring "You like ' the color pink/some musical artist/ something we don't like, etc ,so you must be a Sue-author" I want to hurt something. Liking something they don't doesn't make someone a bad author.


on Deviant Art some people have claimed things like "You're character is A Sue if you ever Use this Song:(some song) for them"

My Satire:http://hoodiegurl.deviantart.com/art/Just-Say-No-139410302[]http://hoodiegurl.deviantart.com/art/Just-Say-No-139410302

Again, its a bunch of elitest people who cant write to save there lives putting down those who can to feel good about themselves.

It's annoying and I brought it to attention because I'm really hoping the 'OC writer vs self proclaimed "sue Hunter" wars don't split up the NIMH community the way they're affecting other Fandoms

Mm... we'd need to have more folks interested in making NIMH fanfics first. We haven't had much in the way of new fanfiction posted anywhere lately.

The only thing I can think of that'd really stimulate that would be a proper sequel or something. It's kinda hard to attract new fans to a movie that's over a quarter century old.

So who are they saying is the Mary Sue?

the 'Sue HUnters?'

Just About Every OC that they spot it seems......


But no I;m not saying anyone in NIMH is a Mary Sue....
Nope