Which Charater Was Treated the Worst by NIMH 2?

Okay, I thought this might be a good discussion topic.

Now, I assume everybody here has heard about "The Secret of NIMH 2: Timmy to the Rescue", right?

For all those who have seen it, I would like to ask a few things:

1.) What was the greatest mistake made by the producers in this sequel that damaged the mystique of the original?

2.) Which original character got the worst treatment in terms of design, lines and overall character?

3.) Do you think there would have been any single ONE change to this movie that could have made it a worthwhile sequel?

Have fun with those questions. I can't wait to read the answers and suggesstions to these.

Cheers,

MAL

1) Some would say that the greatest mistake that the producers made as far as this movie is concerned is making it in the first place. They should have left well enough alone. As the old saying goes "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Be that as it may, I feel that one mistake which was made early on was in trying to capture the mystique of the original by using scenes from the original movie during the opening sequence. To me, this had the effect of building one's hope for greater things to come and when they didn't, the whole thing proved to be a total letdown.

2) In answer to this questioon, I would have to sasy that my answer would be the Great Owl/Jeremy. I mean really... How could one even think of replacing a wise and noble character like the Great Owl from the original SON with a buffoon like Jeremy?? And poor Jeremy in this movie comes across as more of a shady character who's just out to get as many trinkets as he can con the local forest folk into giving him by pretending to be the Great Owl. At least in the original SON, Jeremy though still something of a fool, had a heart of gold and was willing to help Mrs. Brisby in her time of need. My second choice in answer to this question would be evil Martin. Martin in the original SON may have been impetuous, but evil? NO WAY!! The whole idea just did not make any sense.

3) This movie stunk for several reasons so I'm afraid that any one change to the concept would not necessarily fix things. I've alluded to some of the faults in the two previous answers that I have given. I think that another fault that quite a few other members of the NIMH community have mentioned is the fact that they turned this movie into a musical of all things. You had characters bursting into song at inappropiate times causing one to wonder just what the heck is going on here.

Well, there you have it. I hope that I have summed up my feelings about this movie to your satisfaction...

Peace :-)
NIMHmanaic

1) The biggest mistake made by the producers was that they treated SoN 2 as another cheap direct-to-video movie and didn´t put much brain-effort into the production.
2) Cynthia got the worst treatment in terms of design. In "The Secret of NIMH" she is a very young girl that promised to become as attractive as her mother and was good-locking in her own way while in SoN 2 they depicted her as an unattractive fatball!
Mrs. Brisby got the worst treatment when speaking lines and character are concerned. The main character of the original movie was reduced to almost nothing! She was no longer the courageous and caring woman but only the mother of the hero! In the introduction she was almost completely ignored and at the end of the movie she didn´t even has a line and were just standing around in the scene like decoration!
3) No. Not even a wholly different script would make SoN 2 worthwhile to see. The cast is also not acceptable. Mrs. Brisby should had have another voice and Cecil should be removed from the cast.

This is what has come to my mind.

as i always say to NIMH fans all of so called NIMH 2 just needs to be dumped in the trash then melted down into a small block of steel for us to send to MGM animation studio's and show them how low NIMH 2 is

To Martin Siedow,

You're absolutely correct in your assessment as to the treatment of Cynthia and Mrs. Brisdby in SON 2. What was I thinking?? In light of this revelation I would nominate Timmy himself as one of the characters that received poor treatment during this film. Timothy may not have had much of a speaking role in the first installment, but at least he showed the potential for future developement into somthing more. Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH; the novel upon which the original movie is based, alludes to this even more. So you can imagine my disbelief and disappointment when I saw what Timmy had evolved into during this movie.

Peace :-)
NIMHmaniac

After a long repair of my computer´s hard- and software (it´s good that I have backups of my own files) I can finally reply to NIMHmaniacs post.

Yes, Timothy got no nice treatment in the script, but also everyone else in SoN 2. Perhaps Timothy got the wost treatment when he was depicted as a character with mayor flaws who only became a hero because the "fate" or some other mystical force has "decided" that he should be a hero.

In the case of Mrs. Brisby they treated her badly because they didn´t say certain things about her while in the case of Timothy (and Justin) they treated him badly because they did say certain things about him. I think that Mrs. Brisby got the worst treatment when ignored facts are considered (she was the main character after all) while Timothy and Justin got the worst treatment in the way that their characters are shown.

After some thinking I would say that Mrs. Brisby, Timothy and Justin are in the top 3 list of worst treated characters in SoN 2 without giving them an exact position. Maybe they all got position 1 on that list.

I think they all had it bad. Like I said on the old board, the storyline is pretty decent, all they need to do is touch up on the annimation, take out a few parts, like that whole "great owl" bit, and take out all of that singing/dancing crap.

They should also change some of the voices, remove some of the characters and create a totally new script with fewer logical errors that uses much more background material from "The Secret of NIMH"!

Thank you all for your replies and great answers to my questions. I had no idea there would be such detailed and well-constructed commentaries on this topic.

Here are my own two favorites for the title of "worst treated original characters" in NIMH2:


Cynthia:

A cute child, which had the potential to grow up to be a beautiful female character with a possibly charming personality, was turned into an overweight stereotype image of the "fat girl with the pants". This character is usually not found to be used extensively in most fanfiction stories, but the "visual treatment" Cynthia received in NIMH2 was enough to make one despair. The possible personality development this character could have undergone through adulthood could have been used to create a fascinating and lovable character for a sequel, but of course, wasn't.


Brutus:

I understand that turning a rather "vague and shadowy monster", as Brutus was depicted in the original movie, into a character that conformed more with the designs of the other rats of NIMH would have been a hard task. But just to turn him into an over-muscled dunce as seen in NIMH2 showed explicit lack of imagination on the part of MGM. Again, with just a little though and design effort they could have created an imposing character without having to turn him into a goof. The same goes for a personality that could have had some brooding depth.

I only saw the end of the show, because I never bothered renting (I would never have been caught dead renting it for that matter).

It was showing on one of the few Canadian movie channels on the Bell ExpressVU dish I own. From what I could tell and to answer the question presented in this topic, "what ever hack talent animation shop made NIMH II, they screwed all the characters up beyond reproach!". That is all I have to say about NIMH II. :?

Yeah, the other charecters got it pretty bad, they turned Martin into a jerk. Truth is, I kinda like it. I'm sorrry but i do. Actually it's Timmy I like. He rocks. They should make another one , and keep the old animation ,but keep Timmy's personality.

Yeah, the other charecters got it pretty bad, they turned Martin into a jerk. Truth is, I kinda like it. I'm sorrry but i do. Actually it's Timmy I like. He rocks. They should make another one , and keep the old animation ,but keep Timmy's personality.

Okay. just updating here. I've rewatched the movie and honestly? It sucks. It COULD have been done well but the whole things was just lazy.

Martin-done horribly horribly wrong but the brother vs brother plot could have been decent. All it required was a bit more effort. It mentioned he was jealous? The movie had a perfect opportunity to use that and wasted it completely. They just used the cliche 'mad scientist' route that totally goes against the beginning character.

Timothy-I realize now that what I liked was the awkward unsureness of the character. but they needed to develop him better. There was all the makings of good character but it was just done lazily.

Justin-Almost unrecognizable. I mean it's like he just did everything for the sake of plot.

Mr. Ages-Totally unrecognizable. Who is this mouse and why do you keep calling him Mr. Ages?


All in all it just turned out to be a train-wreck that shows how wrong you can go when you put plot over established character. Perhaps if the producers had been willing to wait until Bluth was done with Anastasia we might have a more decent sequel.

What I want to know is why didn't they use more things from Racso and the Rats of NIMH. I understand that they couldn't have done it totally but surely they could have used SOME things?

Right, I now have no trouble in posting anything since I had my machine upgraded so here I go.

Personally I have been waiting so long in order to post what I think of Nimh 2 and here is my oppinion:

I agree to the "General discussion" toppic "Nimh 2 has a secret!" but I feel that so much more can be done.

One of the biggest mistakes I feel the producers made was that Mrs Brisby and the Brisby sisters were given such small parts. I think it would have been better if they were ever so slightly more involved in the story. Now if they got such small parts because of time restrictions I would understand but the fact still remains that so much could have been done with their characters. Look at the Brisby sisters, they could have gone to Thorne valley where they could have grown into much more interesting characters. But no they were given a 10 second clip were they are seen as imature teenagers which is a huge let down for Teressa's origional character which although she was youngwas seen to me as independent and strong.

There are a number of characters which I think got bad treatment from Nimh 2 but if I had to chose two they would have to be:

Mrs Brisby Since I felt that not only did shge not take a very disoreving roll but I don't know I just felt that she could have been shown on a much better light.

Brutus: For those of you who have not seen MAL's NIMH The final experiment site I agree with him that the character of Brutus has been completely changed inti an oafish rat or a sidekick for Justin. I kind of liked the idea of a misterious and menicing character in the background of the story.

Thats all for now!

Right, I now have no trouble in posting anything since I had my machine upgraded so here I go.

Personally I have been waiting so long in order to post what I think of Nimh 2 and here is my oppinion:

I agree to the "General discussion" toppic "Nimh 2 has a secret!" but I feel that so much more can be done.

One of the biggest mistakes I feel the producers made was that Mrs Brisby and the Brisby sisters were given such small parts. I think it would have been better if they were ever so slightly more involved in the story. Now if they got such small parts because of time restrictions I would understand but the fact still remains that so much could have been done with their characters. Look at the Brisby sisters, they could have gone to Thorne valley where they could have grown into much more interesting characters. But no they were given a 10 second clip were they are seen as imature teenagers which is a huge let down for Teressa's origional character which although she was youngwas seen to me as independent and strong.

There are a number of characters which I think got bad treatment from Nimh 2 but if I had to chose two they would have to be:

Mrs Brisby Since I felt that not only did shge not take a very disoreving roll but I don't know I just felt that she could have been shown on a much better light.

Brutus: For those of you who have not seen MAL's NIMH The final experiment site I agree with him that the character of Brutus has been completely changed inti an oafish rat or a sidekick for Justin. I kind of liked the idea of a misterious and menicing character in the background of the story.

Thats all for now!

1) First 'mistake' if you'd like to term it that way, is that they didn't care.

2) By far the great owl got ramrodded the worst. He wasn't in there of course, but what they did concerning him was equivalent to spitting on his grave. I say 'spitting' but I mean something worse...

3) Give it to someone who would care.

Waz Up!

1.) What was the greatest mistake made by the producers in this sequel that damaged the mystique of the original?

The fact that they even released it. They can make all the stupid brainless cartoons they want, just as long as they don't try to sell it to anyone.

2.) Which original character got the worst treatment in terms of design, lines and overall character?

That's a tough one, because in my opinion, they screwed up all the characters about equally. I will mention one in particular, though. Jonathan, in my opinion got messed up pretty bad, or rather, his memory did. Sure, they should remember him, just not like....that. :?

3.) Do you think there would have been any single ONE change to this movie that could have made it a worthwhile sequel?

Umm........No. If they wanted to make a worthwhile sequel, they would have called Bluth instead of the goofball they had working on it. Though it would have been at least bearable had they taken out all the cheesy musical numbers. That totally ruined any dark overtones that may have still existed. Music has it's place in movies, just not...that kind of music, and not in the places they put the songs. That was just....totally inappropriate.

That's all I can think of for now. And I forgot to mention, good questions, mal. :wink:

Keep the Light!
Sp87 ﭿﮥﮭﮢﯜﯥﷲ

i thought the movie was made because the first one was more for an adult understanding and mgm wanted to tone done the violence. timmies atitude was however a totaql irratation through out the movie but other than that i liked the movie. not as good as the first but i would still like to see a 3rd.

Domo!

1. The biggest mistake is the fact that the movie pays no attention to Mrs. Brisby. (Inspired by some websites)

2. Definately Martin (Both normal and evil.) Martin's so different in some way. His personality is the same sort of, but he just seems so bully-ish unlike the original. In the original Martin is more of a "Naughty" not a "Bully." (You can see this in some of the holiday fan arts. Inspired again.)
Now for Evil Martin, I don't hate the idea, but I don't like Martin's change. That "naughty" kid with the blue shirt is that mad insane guy with that cane thingy that's actually a sword? A second choice is Mrs. Brisby. It's okay that she's aged. But it's absoloutly not okay that her parlance, the way she acts, etc have changed so much! I liked Mrs. B because of that "mother-look" and that "mother-love" she had. She now speaks and treats Timmy like he's her grandson! Sheesh!

3. Mrs. Brisby should have been more of a major character. I said this many times already, but they actually keep talking about Jonathan or Nicodemus. My respond to them are "So what did they do in conclusion?"

Since when did Nicodemus become a prophet? And most of all, WHEN DID HE MAKE THE PROPHECY THAT TIMMY WILL SAVE THORN VALLEY??????

Okay, so I know that this thread is ancient, but I was bored and desperate to stick my two cents in about this film.

I agree (partly) with what was said on the 'NIMH 2 has a secret' thread, about the ideas themselves not being bad--it was their execution that was damning. However, the second film should never have been made.

So, here are my answers.

1.) What was the greatest mistake made by the producers in this sequel that damaged the mystique of the original?

In terms of the story itself, I'd say getting rid of the Stone. It was more or less the focal point of the first film, and its absence in the second film is the most glaring inconsistency.

With other animated sequels (The Lion King II, for example), there is at least some attempt to continue the original story. That, as I understand it, is the point of a sequel. When you don't do that, you have an entirely different movie with little or no connection to the original. When you don't do that, you don't have a sequel. You have a bastardization.


2.) Which original character got the worst treatment in terms of design, lines and overall character?

Justin. I agree that Cynthia got it pretty bad, too, but Justin's treatment was ten times worse. He's still wearing the same thing (I really hope he washes that outfit), but his proportions are just plain weird. His facial expressions are...erk....oh, I can't make myself relive them. He also appears to be a rather ineffectual leader, as it seems that Mr. Ages is doing most of the actual leading. liheaddeskli

None of his charm is there anymore, he's just...a huge dork. And while I love dorks, there is a distinction between adorably spazzy and a real goon. And Justin, I'm sorry to say, is turned into a complete goon. He says and does things that Original! Justin would probably never be able to say or do with a straight face. Stealing from a dumpster?!!!! That almost killed me.

Think about it. Justin's hero, Nicodemus, gets squished by a huge chunk of cement because he believes that the rats should live without stealing. What does Justin do? LEADS THE RATS TO STEAL FROM DUMPSTERS!!! Somehow, that does not jive.

3.) Do you think there would have been any single ONE change to this movie that could have made it a worthwhile sequel?

Yes. Get Don Bluth to do it.

Okay, so I know that this thread is ancient, but I was bored and desperate to stick my two cents in about this film.

I agree (partly) with what was said on the 'NIMH 2 has a secret' thread, about the ideas themselves not being bad--it was their execution that was damning. However, the second film should never have been made.

So, here are my answers.

1.) What was the greatest mistake made by the producers in this sequel that damaged the mystique of the original?

In terms of the story itself, I'd say getting rid of the Stone. It was more or less the focal point of the first film, and its absence in the second film is the most glaring inconsistency.

With other animated sequels (The Lion King II, for example), there is at least some attempt to continue the original story. That, as I understand it, is the point of a sequel. When you don't do that, you have an entirely different movie with little or no connection to the original. When you don't do that, you don't have a sequel. You have a bastardization.


2.) Which original character got the worst treatment in terms of design, lines and overall character?

Justin. I agree that Cynthia got it pretty bad, too, but Justin's treatment was ten times worse. He's still wearing the same thing (I really hope he washes that outfit), but his proportions are just plain weird. His facial expressions are...erk....oh, I can't make myself relive them. He also appears to be a rather ineffectual leader, as it seems that Mr. Ages is doing most of the actual leading. liheaddeskli

None of his charm is there anymore, he's just...a huge dork. And while I love dorks, there is a distinction between adorably spazzy and a real goon. And Justin, I'm sorry to say, is turned into a complete goon. He says and does things that Original! Justin would probably never be able to say or do with a straight face. Stealing from a dumpster?!!!! That almost killed me.

Think about it. Justin's hero, Nicodemus, gets squished by a huge chunk of cement because he believes that the rats should live without stealing. What does Justin do? LEADS THE RATS TO STEAL FROM DUMPSTERS!!! Somehow, that does not jive.

3.) Do you think there would have been any single ONE change to this movie that could have made it a worthwhile sequel?

Yes. Get Don Bluth to do it.

i think you got my first point but looking back i think i have to elaberate first i think a sequel would be great if and only IF IT ANSWERED ALL QUESTIONS THE FIRST TWO LEFT. second remember i had watch the movie once when i made this post and had not really paid attention. third they need to first redoo the 2nd movie.

Wow Meg, so glad you bought up this oldy, I had tought that I repleyed to this but it seems not,
I agree with you on the lost charm and mature homuor that Justin had, that was gone in NIMH2, to be short I think that there wasn`t a character from the first movie that was not mauled by the second movie . It would be wonderful for Don Bluth and crew to do a retake on this. :wink:


http://webzoom.freewebs.com/desmouse/Nimh2bad.JPG[" alt=""/img]
My goodness, the fan artists at Thorn Valley here can do a much better Justin.
In the words of Rain Man " Bad very Bad".



[img="]http://webzoom.freewebs.com/desmouse/Nimh2bad01.JPG[" alt=""/img]

They look shocked don`t they?, Well after being told that they will not be paided because there is no money left to do more in this cheap sequel, man I`d be covering my mouth too.
BTW who are these "look-a-likes "? (term used hapharzardly).

livomits profuselyli Ewww...oh, my sweet Justin, my first cartoon crush, what have they done to you? lisobsobsobli In the first movie, I cheered you on. In the second one, I kept wanting to shove you into those flames at the end.

At least Jenner died in the first movie. Otherwise, I'm sure they'd have screwed up his character design, too. And the thought of Jenner singing and dancing a la Evil Martin is nothing short of terrifying. (Cue: 'Psycho' theme music and Jenner doing spins in his grave.)

And the poor Brisby family...okay, Mrs. B doesn't look too bad, all things considered. Teresa looks like a mom, and Cynthia looks like she needs Jenny Craig in a bad way. Guess now we know why Tim's so skinny. And Martin...since when does he have green eyes?! I know that's really minor compared to some of the inconsistancies, but I'm on a roll here. ;)

--Meg

I'm thinking Jonathan. Although we only got a brief glimpse of him in the first movie, he struck me as a quiet kind of hero. I don't think he'd want the rats virtually treating him as a god and putting up a rather tacky statue of him. I also don't think he'd appreciate the rats pressuring his son (Timothy) to live up to his legacy.

I think Jenner may be happy that his character ended in the first movie.
Yeh Mrs Brisby does not look that bad, but is not as beautiful as in the first, and looks like she just got back from a "WoodStock" concert.
Some parts of NIMH2 make me wonder,

http://webzoom.freewebs.com/desmouse/partyfor%20timmy.jpg[" alt=""/img] Mr. Ages "this is how we party timmy, deal with it! now take your cheese roll and blow this place kid"



I sure would not want to see any of these characters in my dreams when I sleep.

[img="]http://webzoom.freewebs.com/desmouse/JustinNIMH2.jpg[" alt=""/img]
"Megan,, Megan,, I need you to start a NIMH2 site for me, and if it`s not done by,,say 6:00PM tommorow I will be haunting you in your dreams always" :evil: .
Signed; NIMH2 Justin.

Well more bad things has happened before, I guess.

He was haunting me about this for some time now, So.. I sent him to you :roll:


PS: All in fun. :D

Ahhhh! NOOOO!!!!! Oh man, I need an exorcism, stat!

In the meantime, I think I'll just hide under the covers. That seems like a reasonable course of action. lishudderli

Yeesh. Looking at the picture of Sequel!Justin is nothing short of scary. That is NOT our Justin, dammit! Original!Justin could eat this goon for breakfast and still have room for seconds.

--Meg

Its been a while since I've seen NIMH 2, but from what I remember they added songs to the movie? I didn't like that. It does not compute with the original.

I'd hate to see what they would have done to Nicodemus had he lived. -.-

What would they have done to Nicodemus?

The phrase 'Metamucil-chugging old fart' does spring to mind. lieyerollli

--Meg

That brings up disturbing images of Nicodemus yelling, "I NEED MUH PILLZ!"

Brutus' line "What in the name of Nicodemus?" pretty much says it all.

I guess those characters that passed on from the first movie are glad they are in rat heaven, who knows how much they would be meat for this sloppiness of carrying on their character, in this movie called NiMH2 .

If these things were not bad enough, What the heck is up with this caterpillar? :roll:

1.) What was the greatest mistake made by the producers in this sequel that damaged the mystique of the original?

They made the movie. :-p Actually, I think it's that they developed it to be a commercial fiction story for children.

2.) Which original character got the worst treatment in terms of design, lines and overall character?

Martin... maybe Justin or Brutus... I'm going to stick mostly with Martin, because I think his character had a lot of potential and they shot it down the tube.

3.) Do you think there would have been any single ONE change to this movie that could have made it a worthwhile sequel?

One change? Not likely, unfortunately. If they could make one change to make it a bit better, they could increase the audience's target age-level.

I'm pretty much in agreement with what everyone else said on the topic, but I thought this the best place to bring up a point I haven't seen brought up yet.

Martin Siedow wrote "Yes, Timothy got no nice treatment in the script, but also everyone else in SoN 2. Perhaps Timothy got the wost treatment when he was depicted as a character with mayor flaws who only became a hero because the "fate" or some other mystical force has "decided" that he should be a hero."

I too found it irritating that Timothy, and viewers, were force-fed this mantra of "You have to be a hero!" Now, not long after I'd first seen NIMH 2 I picked up the first book sequel by Jane Conly, "Racso and the Rats of NIMH." It wasn't without its faults too cutesy in places, the candy-making bit being especially hard to take. But there was one passage which, the minute I first read it, struck me with how diametrically opposed it was to that Hero Mantra. In the chapter "Nicodemus," just after Racso tells Nicodemus he wants to stay on in Thorn Valley, Nicodemus asks why, and Racso answers

"I want to be a scientist. I want to be a hero, like you."

Nicodemus looked genuinely startled. He laughed briefly. His good eye was open wide, and regarded Racso with quiet amusement. "I am not a hero," he said. "And Thorn Valley is not in the business of raising heroes. Heroes are creatures of adversity--war, fire, accident or disaster. Our dreams for Thorn Valley don't include the tragic circumstances that produce heroes. What we want is a community where rats cooperate to provide food and shelter, where work and pleasure are part of everyone's life."

"But you'll need heroes," Racso argued. "You'll need leaders."

"Leaders, yes," Nicodemus nodded. "But leaders are no more heroic than the rat who carries more grain than she really has to, or the student who does not lose his temper when another rat takes what is rightfully his."

Some contrast! Maybe NIMH 2 would have been better if it was more like "Racso" or even directly adapted from it.
Still some life left in some of these ancient topics!

Just about all of them, especilly Mrs.B.

Martin Siedow wrote "Yes, Timothy got no nice treatment in the script, but also everyone else in SoN 2. Perhaps Timothy got the wost treatment when he was depicted as a character with mayor flaws who only became a hero because the "fate" or some other mystical force has "decided" that he should be a hero."

I too found it irritating that Timothy, and viewers, were force-fed this mantra of "You have to be a hero!"

That's a pretty good point; I hadn't thought about that. I especially like the reference to Racso.That said, I don't think he's the worst-treated char in the movie:

1. Tim is not a well-defined character in the first movie. He could've been just as bad there, but being asleep, sick and very young, never got a chance to show that side of him. Sure, he probably wouldn't be the way NIMH2 portrayed him, but there's not as much to latch onto. The book gives him a bit more to work with, but then NIMH 2 is as far from a sequel to the book as it comes.
   
2. Tim's very much a Mary Sue-ish character. He gets the fame, he gets the girl, he rescues his brother, and nothing permanently bad ever happens to him during the course of the film. The fact that he sucks so badly at most of the stuff he does growing up is the only thing that makes him slightly tolerable, as it makes him doubt his fate and gives him a bit of forced humility. Even though he ends up fulfilling that fate later.
   
3. Tim is one of the better drawn chars, along with Jenny. He's still affected by the overall stylistic suck of the movie, but as far as the movie goes... Well, it could be worse. licoughliCynthialicoughli
   
4. Tim's no brainiac in NIMH 2, but everyone else with a remotely well-developed character quite clearly took some stupid pills before starring in NIMH 2 and lost most of the essence of their character that was present in the original. Some more than others licoughliBrutuslicoughli. Tim ends up looking at least somewhat competent (though Jenny is still head and shoulders above him in that respect).
   [/list:u]
   
   I'd say that Tim is probably the most disappointing character in NIMH 2, at least for me personally, but treated worst? Nah, not really.

Making a sequel to NIMH is virtually impossible, at least without making it seem farfetched and tacky. NIMH 2 was at least fun to watch if you were in the right mood.

liThe amulet....It would be hard to include this Deus ex-Machina into the a sequel, yet it was such a big part of the first that not including it would seem weird.

liAmbiguity.....part of the first film's charm was the fact that many questions are left unanswered; this film didn't even try to answer them and actually, I think that was for the best.

liVoice cast.....since, sadly, most of the cast is dead and Mrs. Brisby had such a memorable and distinct voice, finding a replacement would be hard in this day and age.

liMarketing.....NIMH has a strong cult following, but marketing a sequel to a 30 year old film would be hard to do.

liMr. Ages......How can we possibly have respect for a character that wears the same underwear 3 days in a row? Especially since he shared this information to an underage child.

Could've sworn I'd replied to this topic... Ah well, no time like the present!

1.) What was the greatest mistake made by the producers in this sequel that damaged the mystique of the original?

...Don't think I could limit it to just one, but the one that really overlies it all is making the movie period, or at least making it with the (rather obvious) lack of intent and attention that proper sequels deserve. You want to make money? Then give the project to somebody who cares!

Or, you know, doesn't belong in an insane asylum.

But to be completely honest, the movie itself was a mistake. There's no single mistake in it that is the greatest, but the first one was to pull "Nicodemus' Prophecy" out of their cuss-hole. That is the decision that set the whole film up for its downward spiral into oblivion (a very steep and short spiral, I admit, but a spiral nonetheless).

2.) Which original character got the worst treatment in terms of design, lines and overall character?

Surprisingly, I agree with Simon in the sense that Timmy did not receive the worst treatment. Don't get me wrong, it's bad, but I think there are others that got worse treatments. Mr Ages is the first that comes to mind - what happened to that abrasive old coot that I loved watching as a kid? - along with Jeremy (R.I.P. Dom Deliuse) and the Brisby kids (esp. Martin...what have they done to you!). But hands down the one that got the worst treatment was, to me, Justin. In SoN, he was a fun soul with a chivalrous attitude; he was the kind of guy that I'd always wanted to be (and sort of am, in a way). He had guts, he had humour, he had courage (different from guts), and he had honour. He was confident, cool, suave, and took action.

In NIMH 2...god-cussit, I just want to shove something up the writers cusses. He was this by-the-book leader who had somehow instated a council of elders to run the community. He relied too strongly on other people to make his decisions. He was easily influenced - the original Justin was very independent in my eyes and was always a go-getter - and he let a group of people stand in the way of his heart. He became a less sympathetic mentor figure, but nearly all of his mentorship is removed from the film, so we only get that one river jump that implies that he will have a serious hand in Timmy's future upbringing.

And the cliff scene! That cussed cliff scene! They implied - quite strongly, I might add - that Timmy and Justin would have a solid relationship, that there would be a powerful bond forged between the two that could possibly be put at risk later. The two were placed at risk...but where the cuss was the bond? A couple scenes of the two together, and that's it!

Pardon my rant, but it really does upset me that they didn't think the story through, and a lot of that surfaces through Justin and Timmy. Did Justin just leave Timmy to fend for himself during his early months/years whenever he wasn't being taught? Who looked after Timmy? Who taught Timmy any life skills (I would note here that the only skill Timmy ever really displayed was slingshooting, something that even I can do with my eyes closed)?

Given the way the movie had been setting up, I actually had gotten a bit hyped. Bit of a rocky start, but they opened tons of room for character development and lots of plot bunny-holes with those few scenes of Timmy being taught. Perhaps Timmy made some friends; perhaps Timmy lived with either Justin or Mr Ages (don't really care which, but I hate that it implies Timmy was left on his own; he was just a cussing kid!).

Effectively my point is that a lot of strong material could have been made if they had fleshed out the characters and their relationships a bit more, especially (in my opinion) the potential mentor/father relationship that would have feasibly developed between Timmy and Justin. I can't imagine that Mrs Brisby was silent about how Justin fought off Jenner to stop him from killing her. The character of Justin was, in my opinion, the most trashed original character in the movie.

...Wow. That felt good.

3.) Do you think there would have been any single ONE change to this movie that could have made it a worthwhile sequel?

Take it off the shelves, fund a new project with people who care, and start a brand-new sequel. Trash the old one. It sucks cuss.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please pardon the excessive use of the word 'cuss' as a substitute; I recently saw The Fantastic Mr. Fox, and loved it to pieces. Excellent movie.