I find this a coincidence.

I find things interesting that to others is very random. Here's one example...

Elizabeth- "Consecrated to god"
Jonathan- "Gift of god
Timothy- "To honor god"

Well, some people might find it interesting. :? :? :?

I do (sort of)

I would think every one would find it interesting if the rest of the family is in the list :? ...

Taken from
http://www.babynames.com/

Well, I wouldn't say that's such a coincidence, since all of those names are derived from Hebrew names. I'd say that a good 80% of Hebrew names have something to do with God. For instance, my real name (Nathaniel, also of Hebrew origin) means "God has given."

Well, I wouldn't say that's such a coincidence, since all of those names are derived from Hebrew names.

Actually, Timothy seems to be a Greek name according to the website I went to.

Actually, Timothy seems to be a Greek name according to the website I went to.

Timothy is Greek. It's a modern version of Timotheos, "honouring or esteeming God (or "the gods")". It's related to Timaeus, "the honourable one". Both would have been in use throughout the Mediterranean during Biblical times. People travelled a lot during the time of Jesus, and the Empire was a cosmopolitan place, much like America is today. The Greeks especially were held in esteem for their culture, and there'd be nothing remarkable about a Hebrew (or British, or Gaullish, or whatever) boy being given a Greek name.

Theresa is a Greek name as well, apparently meaning "Summer". Some sources claim that it's derived from the name of the island Thera, which I have a problem with, since 'Thera' literally translates as "the beast" or "the door", which doesn't seem a promising root for a girl's name.

Hmm... I stand corrected, I guess. Still, I think my original point still stands. ;)

In the book I have it allows for derivitives of both origins (Greek and Hebrew) and even has ties and meaning in Norse and British usage.

I think it was on this site that someone mentioned how most (if not all) names used in the Secret of NIMH (aside from Dragon, of course) are Christian names or at least have that English transliteration from their roots to our more common names today. The one I still have trouble finding is Nicodemus. The only example I found was Aramaic/Hebrew, but the meaning is of unkown origin. I'm sure there's another source out there with a better foundation on the name, though.

The remnants of Greek society and the Roman Empire were more or less "death bed converts" to the Israelitish standard and thought, so a lot of the names stayed the same as far as meaning. Naturally, meaning doesn't change much when names are derived from words in languages that don't endure much change. :wink:

The one I still have trouble finding is Nicodemus. The only example I found was Aramaic/Hebrew, but the meaning is of unkown origin. I'm sure there's another source out there with a better foundation on the name, though.

Nicodemus is very much a Greek name. "Nike Demos", "the people's victory" or "brings victory to his people". Rather a fitting name for the character actually :) It's a very common first century name. If you're in college, your school probably has an Anchor Bible Dictionary, which has a lot of this sort of stuff in it.

Considering how well come of these names fit, I begin to wonder if O'Brien had Classical training.

hmm. remindes me of another author that gave names that pretained to his charactars.

Anchor Bible Dictionary, huh? I'll check for that next time I'm in the LRC on campus. I normally resort to the Strongs Exhaustive Concordance for word meaning. It really does make word studies and required readings that have endured translation easier to grasp. It's also befuddling to realize sometimes that the translations are prone to erre. :? Rather disturbing, too. I'd like to be confident that my studies are truthful and not carelessly thrown together, you know what I mean?

hmm. remindes me of another author that gave names that pretained to his charactars.

It's a very good and uplifting practice. Names are very much a blessings; those who are told what their names mean have a very strong tendency to find goals easier and strive to achieve. In my personal experience, that knowledge has a tendency to actually mold personalities. Isn't that interesting?

I've always thought that Nicodemus' name was a reference to the Biblical Nicodemus, the Jewish official who was open-minded (and daring) enough to consort with Christ. He was the one who asked the famous question about spiritual renewal (how can a man be born again?), displaying his inquistive nature, much like how the rat Nicodemus is inquisitive about the meaning of life and his place (and the rats' place) in the greater scheme of things.

Also, Nicodemus was a member of the Sanhendrin, the Jewish council that ran the affairs of Israel (and also condemned Christ and His teachings). He, along with fellow council member Joseph of Arimethea, had to keep their allegience to Christ a secret, for they would have surely been rooted out had their inclination been discovered. This pronounced secrecy is also invocative of the secrecy with which the rat Nicodemus must maintain for the Colony to ensure its survival.

The issue of Biblical translation is on the forefront of my mind as well. In particular, I'm very much concerned by the trend towards "easier" translations that sacrifice faithfulness to the original languages for readability. For example, the most popular translation for general use seems to be the NIV (which I'm not particularly fond of, though at least it's better than the CEV or TEV). Still, it shouldn't be too hard to find a good translation if you know what you're looking for. The KJV/RSV/NRSV series seem to be a good bet, though as a Catholic I would prefer other translations; we Catholics just /have/ to be different from everybody, you know ;)

(The famous Canadian commenter, Rex Murphy, had something snarky to say about watered-down translations, but, unfortunately, CBC is having a labour disruption and I can't find the link :P )

(This excerpt from the King James Version -KJV- of the Biblle, taken from www.biblestudytools.net )

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, F7 he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. F8 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

For a minute there I was thinking of "Simon" the magician (it was Simon, right?) who asked Christ for His secrets. I can't believe I actually mixed those two up. :?

Wow, I like the alegory you picked up on. I wouldn't have even gathered that. Very interesting indeed. I'll be taking that post hom to my sister (as well as a copy for my own reference :) ).

Magnificent! I'm with you on the translation deal. In fact, you'd probably be shocked to know the truth about the NIV. It's actually very... disturbing and sad. :( The NIV was not translated from the original Greek and Hebrew (and Chaldee and Aramaic) texts. Wilcott and Hort, two members of the Ghostly Guild on England, offered to translate the Bible into a more readable version. Unfortunately, Wilcott and Hort were members of "a" Christian sect, so their allegiance to the Ghostly Guild was not known, and if it had been it would have been dismissed. At any rate, they actually re-wrote the original texts, assisted by several others from the Guild as well as other people who had never cracked open a Bible in their lives, screwed up some of the meaning, and from "that" alterred text translted the NIV (and several other versions followed from the same distorted text). Among the worst of their "mixups" is the usage of Lucifer's title of "Son of the Morning" into the "Morning Star," which is used in Revelation as a title of Christ. :shock: Bad move.

But what about the KJV? I think it's funny that people tend to discredit it so much. King James actually drafted 40 (!!) of the world's most intelligent linguists to translate the Bible from its original texts into english. Forty! They refused to make any changes unless the translations were agreed upon unanimously. Now, I'm not sure about you, but that seems like credentials enough for me to put my faith in the KJV translation. :wink:

Wow, that was almost tangential. But not quite. :) Very stimulating conversation. I grew up (and still reside) in a Christian home with Southern Baptist origins. We're not Southern Baptists anymore. We're probably not even Baptists. :? I guess we're just Christians who decided to take our beliefs from our studies. Naturally, we check our studies and observations by the proof of "two witnesses" at least, and we still go to church, but there's just so much theology we have to wade through these days, you know? Sometimes it's hard to be sure whether someone is getting their theology straight from Scripture or whether its more human philosophy. I'm of the belief that humans are capable of being wise (I quote some philosophers), but the Bible is just one of those things that "has" to stand alone, and shouldn't be combined with anything else.

:D It seems we have some Hermenueticist in here! hehehe I love it!

I'll be back...when I've rested!

For a minute there I was thinking of "Simon" the magician (it was Simon, right?) who asked Christ for His secrets. I can't believe I actually mixed those two up. :?

Wow! great quote from the third chapter of John on "Nicodemus". :)

There are as I know of three Simons, I think the one you are speaking of that ask about the kingdom, was the apostle Peter who was also named Simon.

Also there was in the book of the "Acts Of the Apostles" there was Simon the tanner (good guy) and Simon the magician (bad guy?) that they had to give a rebuke to, what the heck he may of cleaned up his act later, It is not said :?
Oops,!! I`ved just been handed a bulletin that there is a another Simon living in these days, and he has the greatest NIMH site around :wink:

Wow! great quote from the third chapter of John on "Nicodemus". :)

There are as I know of three Simons, I think the one you are speaking of that ask about the kingdom, was the apostle Peter who was also named Simon.

Also there was in the book of the "Acts Of the Apostles" there was Simon the tanner (good guy) and Simon the magician (bad guy?) that they had to give a rebuke to, what the heck he may of cleaned up his act later, It is not said :?
Oops,!! I`ved just been handed a bulletin that there is a another Simon living in these days, and he has the greatest NIMH site around :wink:

Whops! I just realized I forgot to rpovide the ctaul reference. >< Way to go catching that! ^^

Hehe, I'm put to shame. I'm pretty sure I was referrig to "Simon the Sorcerer/Magician," but I had totally forgotten about Simon the Tanner. I've always relly enjoyed Simon Peter the Apostle. If I remember correctly, his was the spiritual gift of Prophecy (as in a proclaimer of truth, not a seer of the future like the prophets of the OT). It's funny, though... the two spiritual gifts that are least alike are those of Prophecy and Mercy. Peter had the gift of Prophecy and (I think) there was John who had the spiritual gift of Mercy, but they hung out with each other more than anyone else. Funny, huh? Opposites really do attract. :)

Hup! You're right. We have another great Simon among us. Blessings on his head. :D

Nicodemus itself means: Victor over the people

-Zondervan's Compact Bible Dictionary.


My character Zohar (Nicodemus' lost son) is the title of the Kabbalah Book of Splendor

In the Bible, Zohar was the name of a few people, including a noble Hittite.

Wow. That's definitely cool. :) I'll have to do a search on Zohar.

Do you know what Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic word it's derived from? I use the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance for most of my translating when I don't already know the word (which for Hebrew is all the time, and for Greek is most of the time. :wink: )

You mean the name 'Zohar' itself? I am unsure. I've never seen an origin for the word aside for the Kabbalah.

Magnificent! I'm with you on the translation deal. In fact, you'd probably be shocked to know the truth about the NIV. It's actually very... disturbing and sad. The NIV was not translated from the original Greek and Hebrew (and Chaldee and Aramaic) texts. Wilcott and Hort, two members of the Ghostly Guild on England, offered to translate the Bible into a more readable version. Unfortunately, Wilcott and Hort were members of "a" Christian sect, so their allegiance to the Ghostly Guild was not known, and if it had been it would have been dismissed. At any rate, they actually re-wrote the original texts, assisted by several others from the Guild as well as other people who had never cracked open a Bible in their lives, screwed up some of the meaning, and from "that" alterred text translted the NIV (and several other versions followed from the same distorted text). Among the worst of their "mixups" is the usage of Lucifer's title of "Son of the Morning" into the "Morning Star," which is used in Revelation as a title of Christ. Bad move

...Whoa o_O I never realized that it was that bad. Not at all...No wonder these Protestants I met online called it the "New Idiot's Version" n.n

I didn't mean to diminish the KJV version; I think that's it a good translation, by and by. I know some Catholics who have quite a liking to it. Still, the dictates of my creed direct me to other translations, such as the RSV:CE (which is based on the KJV anyway). It sounds a little odd, yes, and it would take a while to explain, but if you're willing to hear me out at a later date, then I'll be happy to expound :)

Also, I do very much believe in the importance of the Bible as a source (if not /the/ Source) of religious and spiritual truth. However...I'd better leave this up in the air for now, seeing as how my Faith does take a while to explain. Still, again, if you're willing...

Another thing I remember: Apparently, Simon Magus (the magician) didn't entirely relent; some sources I've read denote him as a founder of that odd amalgam of belief called Gnosticism, which is part of the foundation of today's New Age Movement. Figure that o_O

...Whoa o_O I never realized that it was that bad. Not at all...No wonder these Protestants I met online called it the "New Idiot's Version" n.n

I didn't mean to diminish the KJV version; I think that's it a good translation, by and by. I know some Catholics who have quite a liking to it. Still, the dictates of my creed direct me to other translations, such as the RSV:CE (which is based on the KJV anyway). It sounds a little odd, yes, and it would take a while to explain, but if you're willing to hear me out at a later date, then I'll be happy to expound :)

Also, I do very much believe in the importance of the Bible as a source (if not /the/ Source) of religious and spiritual truth. However...I'd better leave this up in the air for now, seeing as how my Faith does take a while to explain. Still, again, if you're willing...

Another thing I remember: Apparently, Simon Magus (the magician) didn't entirely relent; some sources I've read denote him as a founder of that odd amalgam of belief called Gnosticism, which is part of the foundation of today's New Age Movement. Figure that o_O

Hehe, a friend of mine calls it the NIP (New International Perversion). :? It's kind of a bothersome subject for me when you get down to it. I'm not adverse to other bible translations. I'm just very partial to the KJV. It's really the only one I use.

Oh, no, not at all. I did not take offense at all. In fact, I did not perceive any diminishing of the KJV. :wink: Not that it would ultimately matter. I respect your oppinion wholeheartedly. And I would love to hear about the CE translation. I already have a copy of the RSV and NRSV that I have used on occasion, so I'm familiar with them. Have you ever heard of the "Good News Bible"? If you haven't you might want to check it out. "Maybe." It's so horribly distorted and twisted it makes me sick to my stomach. Ugh.

Oh, I'd love to hear more about your faith (and the Bible translations). If you want, my e-mail address is: email==matthew@thebourgs.netmatthew@thebourgs.net=matthew@thebourgs.netmatthew@thebourgs.net/email. Or we can discuss it here? My sister and I are currently talking in depth with a good friend of the Mormon faith. She claims to not believe the theologies of the Mormon faith that are anti-Christian, but some of what she's said and written thus far say otherwise, unfortunately. :? Do you know anything about the Mormon religion?

Oh, my... that's goes to figure. Kinda scary, too. More than the whole New Age movement, I'm disturbed by the Post-Modern Relativist movement. Have you heard of their belief? It's everywhere around me at least, and everyone I've talked to or read (both individual and professional and experienced practitioner of that belief) claim beliefs that boil down to "no responsibility" and ultimate anarchy. :? Makes me wonder. But then, I "do" have to attend a rather liberal college at the moment, and by liberal I don't mean politically (thought they are that, too), I mean moral decay. They just... don't care about standards at all. :(

Sorry to butt in on this fascinating conversation, but I had to put in my two cents... ;)

Hehe, a friend of mine calls it the NIP (New International Perversion). :? It's kind of a bothersome subject for me when you get down to it. I'm not adverse to other bible translations. I'm just very partial to the KJV. It's really the only one I use.

Oh, no, not at all. I did not take offense at all. In fact, I did not perceive any diminishing of the KJV. :wink: Not that it would ultimately matter. I respect your oppinion wholeheartedly. And I would love to hear about the CE translation. I already have a copy of the RSV and NRSV that I have used on occasion, so I'm familiar with them. Have you ever heard of the "Good News Bible"? If you haven't you might want to check it out. "Maybe." It's so horribly distorted and twisted it makes me sick to my stomach. Ugh.

My church uses the KJV as it's official version of the Bible, though I've recently been comparing other versions with it... I'm not quite sure what to think, at the moment, of the newer translations. Certainly they're easier to follow; English has changed quite a bit since the 17th century. Though there's something about the modern translations that seem kinda weird; guess I'm used to the "thee's, thou's and thine's."

Oh, I'd love to hear more about your faith (and the Bible translations). If you want, my e-mail address is: email==matthew@thebourgs.netmatthew@thebourgs.net=matthew@thebourgs.netmatthew@thebourgs.net/email. Or we can discuss it here? My sister and I are currently talking in depth with a good friend of the Mormon faith. She claims to not believe the theologies of the Mormon faith that are anti-Christian, but some of what she's said and written thus far say otherwise, unfortunately. :? Do you know anything about the Mormon religion?

I do. I'm a member. ;) Though I'm not quite sure what you mean about the Mormon faith having "anti-Christian theologies"... I've never detected any such thing myself. Though I guess it all comes down to how you define Christian. Certainly, I'll admit that according to some people's definition, we don't quite fit the mold--however, I'd also say that the doctrines of the Church are also in harmony with Christ and his teachings. Anyway, the Church has an official website here: http://mormon.org/ though you might be more interested in the FAQs: http://mormon.org/question/faq/category/0,8791,798-1,00.html . And if you've got any questions for me, feel free to ask.

Oh, my... that's goes to figure. Kinda scary, too. More than the whole New Age movement, I'm disturbed by the Post-Modern Relativist movement. Have you heard of their belief? It's everywhere around me at least, and everyone I've talked to or read (both individual and professional and experienced practitioner of that belief) claim beliefs that boil down to "no responsibility" and ultimate anarchy. :? Makes me wonder. But then, I "do" have to attend a rather liberal college at the moment, and by liberal I don't mean politically (thought they are that, too), I mean moral decay. They just... don't care about standards at all. :(

There's definitely something that we can agree on... And I think it's a bit more widespread a belief than one might think, though of course there seems to be different degrees of it. It was definitely pretty widespread at Portland State (which I attended 2 years ago). I got sick enough of it, in fact, that I transferred to a more conservative school. 'Course, I think part of it was just my parent's not-so-subtle hints that it was time to leave the nest. ;)

I'm sure Jenner would fit right in with that movement, though. :evil:

Wow, I'm out of time right now, but you have my complete attention, and I fully intend to reply to this post shortly. Like, tomorrow some time.

Don't go anywhere. :wink: My next post in this thread will be a reply to your post. :)

Hehe, butt in? No need to be sorry. I'm honored that our conversation has merited your attention. :)

Mmhmm. Join the club. Our church is staunchly KJV, too. The whole KJV only thing is really a new family decision though. We've only been of that mind for about three years now. We do what we call Wisdom Search every morning, where our Dad sits everyone down and leads us in bible-reading and a sort study before he goes to work. We all used to have our own versions to cmpare and contrast because we thought they just used different words to say the same thing. It got pretty serious when, from tanslation to translation, there were entire passages of Scripture that said things so differentiated from each other so as to not be comparable one to another.

This is true. English has changed quite a bit since the 17th century. :wink: I'm not sure how it is for you, but I've been reading from the KJV for so long now I could probably drop into an old english conversation without batting an eyelash. It's hard to understand at first, but once you find out what certain words actually mean (and you have a lexicon or Strong's to define words) the usage can become second nature.

I know what you mean about some of the new translations being weird. Like the Good News Bible I mentioned somewhere in this plethora of postings. It's not very new because my grandparents have been using it in Guatemala since they first began work in the mission field. But I'm here to tell you, it's just... wrong. It doesn't even say the same things.

Oh, you're Mormon? Cool beans. That helps a lot. I actually do have some curiosities I'd love to run by you. Like my sister said to our friend Michaelann, "The harvest is plenty." :wink: The printed e-mail I have with enumerations of Mormon tenets is with my sister and she's at class right now, but I'll get that from her today and re-post with a few of the tenets that struck me as not in harmony with our faith. And I should clarify: I said anti-Christian, but that really is the wrong term. I probably should have said something like... um... well, not in harmony with (what a great many of us believe to be) the Christian faith. I'll be very open and admit, though, that no one will ever know all the secrets of Scripture as its insights can only be revealed untainted by the Holy Spirit, and there are so many of them that man could never hope to uncover them all. A theologian I heard speak one time said, "When man tries to understand and interpret Scripture with his mind, we get man's philosphy in the translation. We cannot hope to understand Scripture with our minds, for these things are spiritually perceived." That always struck me as profound. :)

I'll also admit that I have yet to visit your church's website, but I will definitely be doing that in a few short minutes. I will say the one thing I'm so very, very impressed with concerning Mormon's is their ministry. I've never seen a group of people with the right idea of the church. A church is for dsicipling believers, and the spreading of the word is what the members should do. One of the biggest problems Baptists are having worth their churches right now (and most don't even know it's a problem, sadly) is that they change their services, their practices and their convictions to suit the incoming younger unsaved generation. We are and always will be called to be separate from the world. "Be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds." We're making constant concession for a group of people who are not Christian, and the result is the becoming of a very worldly congregation. Sadly, I'm not sure I've found a church anywhere in our area that doesn't feel more like a social club and a rock concert than a church. :(

Hahaha, I wish my parents would share in that sympathy to a degree. Both of them are like, "But Jesus only left home when he was 30, and the Bible says a man should only leave his parents for a wife." My initial response is, either I've got to grow up very fast or I've just GOT to get married. :wink: But as I don't plan to do either any time soon, and biblically I'll probably be the one taking care of my parents in their old age, I'll just keep my job, go to school, and work in the area until God calls me elsewhere. I'd really not like to be living at home when I'm 30 though. :?

I know we shouldn't get angry, and it goes way against my nature to show anger for anything, especially in front of people, but it always gets me hot under the collar to hear them spout on about how there's no standard of living, morality is a projection of norms by twisted dictatorial religions on humanity, and their slogan, "What's right for me is right for me, and it may not be right for you, and that's okay." Blech. It just feels like anarchy. "It may be right for you to obey traffic laws, but it's not right for me. So I'm gonna drive 100 mph, and if a cop gives me a ticket I'll protest and refuse to pay it." The attitude is so backward. Try and bring up any reason why their belief above all others makes absolutely no common sense and they get all defensive, but they have nothing to back it up. It's tragic when somebody can't "give a reason for the questions" people ask of their beliefs, and I'm no excpetion to that as I don't always remember references very well, but to not have any source of validation except for yourself is a fallacy of the most unbelievable degree.

Was it really very bad at your university? I know here the we have four campuses: one is very conservative, one is liberal, another is actually in a high school, and the fourth and biggest of all its campuses is so liberal it's almost hostile. There's just no respect for anybody who doesn't see things how they see things. I get/got along just fine because I'm generally not involved with college peple and college life aside from those in prject groups and clas study groups. Still, they're pretty loud. I can't just shut my ears. And I should use it to be more vocal about my own stance. After all, "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke. :wink: I love that quote. It's incentive to remember that, if you do believe in something, you should believe in it enough to support it and suffer for it (something I'm not very good at).

Hehe, I think you may be right about Jenner there. :wink:

In closing, here is something my Mormon friend Michaelann said that I have quoted often for a while now. It just makes sense, and it's the perfect rebuttal against the pain people cause by mocking us for where we stand. "I... am inclined to believe that my way's best. But that's because it's my way, and if I didn't like it best I wouldn't do it." - Michaelann

Heh... Now it's my turn for a short reply. Studying for a midterm (yes, already) tomorrow. I'll try to reply after I get back from work then.

By the way, I visited your church's website and printed up a ream of paper. I've been reading whenever I had the chance. :)

This is true. English has changed quite a bit since the 17th century. :wink: I'm not sure how it is for you, but I've been reading from the KJV for so long now I could probably drop into an old english conversation without batting an eyelash. It's hard to understand at first, but once you find out what certain words actually mean (and you have a lexicon or Strong's to define words) the usage can become second nature.

Well, I'm used to most of the usage, though there are a number of sections that are difficult to parse licoughliPaullicoughli. One thing that helps me a lot, though, is that the LDS Church has its own edition of the KJV with a lot of footnotes and a pretty extensive study guide and bible dictionary--though since it's included with the text, it isn't nearly as thick as some standalone dictionaries or concordances. ;) In hardcopy, these study helps make up a full third of the book's weight. Anyway, if you're interested, the church has an online version (including the study helps) here: http://scriptures.lds.org/ (It also includes other texts, such as the Book of Mormon, that we consider scripture).

Oh, you're Mormon? Cool beans. That helps a lot. I actually do have some curiosities I'd love to run by you. Like my sister said to our friend Michaelann, "The harvest is plenty." :wink: The printed e-mail I have with enumerations of Mormon tenets is with my sister and she's at class right now, but I'll get that from her today and re-post with a few of the tenets that struck me as not in harmony with our faith. And I should clarify: I said anti-Christian, but that really is the wrong term. I probably should have said something like... um... well, not in harmony with (what a great many of us believe to be) the Christian faith.

Which is basically what I said, though using different words. ;) Anyway, I'll try to answer your questions as best I can.

I'll be very open and admit, though, that no one will ever know all the secrets of Scripture as its insights can only be revealed untainted by the Holy Spirit, and there are so many of them that man could never hope to uncover them all. A theologian I heard speak one time said, "When man tries to understand and interpret Scripture with his mind, we get man's philosphy in the translation. We cannot hope to understand Scripture with our minds, for these things are spiritually perceived." That always struck me as profound. :)

I agree with that wholeheartedly. Too often we try to convince rather than uplift.

I'll also admit that I have yet to visit your church's website, but I will definitely be doing that in a few short minutes. I will say the one thing I'm so very, very impressed with concerning Mormon's is their ministry. I've never seen a group of people with the right idea of the church. A church is for dsicipling believers, and the spreading of the word is what the members should do. One of the biggest problems Baptists are having worth their churches right now (and most don't even know it's a problem, sadly) is that they change their services, their practices and their convictions to suit the incoming younger unsaved generation. We are and always will be called to be separate from the world. "Be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds." We're making constant concession for a group of people who are not Christian, and the result is the becoming of a very worldly congregation. Sadly, I'm not sure I've found a church anywhere in our area that doesn't feel more like a social club and a rock concert than a church. :(

Hmm... I can't say that I've been to many other churches' services; although I did visit a couple of Evangelical churches when I served as a missionary in Chile and some of the services seemed like what you described. Definitely different from what I'm used to. While our services aren't quite as austere as I'd imagine a Catholic Mass to be, we do try to maintain a sense of reverence during the Sunday service. Though we do have a lot of weekday/Saturday activities geard towards the youth, which I like. I do like what you said about not being 'conformed to the world'; although no one's perfect, I think too many people (regardless of the church they're in) use it as an excuse to be lax about things.

Hahaha, I wish my parents would share in that sympathy to a degree. Both of them are like, "But Jesus only left home when he was 30, and the Bible says a man should only leave his parents for a wife." My initial response is, either I've got to grow up very fast or I've just GOT to get married. :wink: But as I don't plan to do either any time soon, and biblically I'll probably be the one taking care of my parents in their old age, I'll just keep my job, go to school, and work in the area until God calls me elsewhere. I'd really not like to be living at home when I'm 30 though. :?

Heh... Well, technically, it only says that Jesus began his ministry at age 30, not that he waited until he was 30 to leave home. I'm afraid I can't find a reference for a scripture that says one should only leave their parents for a wife, either. Personally, I'd chalk it up to different audiences of the time, along with different customs. And I think I'd go crazy if I had to stay at home that long anyway. I'd say things worked out for the best. ;)

Was it really very bad at your university? I know here the we have four campuses: one is very conservative, one is liberal, another is actually in a high school, and the fourth and biggest of all its campuses is so liberal it's almost hostile. There's just no respect for anybody who doesn't see things how they see things. I get/got along just fine because I'm generally not involved with college peple and college life aside from those in prject groups and clas study groups. Still, they're pretty loud. I can't just shut my ears. And I should use it to be more vocal about my own stance. After all, "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke. :wink: I love that quote. It's incentive to remember that, if you do believe in something, you should believe in it enough to support it and suffer for it (something I'm not very good at).

Well, I managed to avoid classes that had a lot of hot-button liberals in them--there ended up being a fair mix. Still, the environment itself was rather liberal; you should've seen the college newspaper. :shock: Maybe I was hearing more from the vocal minority, but ah well. Anyway, it was an interesting experience, all around, though I much prefer where I'm at now.

In closing, here is something my Mormon friend Michaelann said that I have quoted often for a while now. It just makes sense, and it's the perfect rebuttal against the pain people cause by mocking us for where we stand. "I... am inclined to believe that my way's best. But that's because it's my way, and if I didn't like it best I wouldn't do it." - Michaelann

I like it. :)

Wow! lots of "meat" here, and this is a most in depth chat, My slow typing and bad spelling not withheld as I try to write. I`m of "Reformed" faith and I enjoy studying the History of the church, From God`s promise of a savior in Genesis, to Christ, the Apostles and Augustine, Martin Luther (not the JR). and John Calvin and so much more cool dudes towards our time. the history of the church is marked with it`s own ups and downs. But thru time I think the Gospel Has been put forth by great men and failed to be destroyed by the evil men. I`d write more but , there will be more time :) Please forgive me, my two and three finger typing (It`s just so slow, I get so mad at that).

But in going for now, I cannot understand why some people (not all, a few really) razz me that being of a faith, also means that animation and beautiful books of great stories are a no no :?

BTW; Lots of neat stuff here guys :D .

simon your mormon i am to. i really never wqould have guesed. though i do have to admit i dont read the scriptores as much as i should. but its because the small words proove nearly imposible for someone deslexic to read. you know if i can get one online for free?

i dont read the scriptores as much as i should. but its because the small words proove nearly imposible for someone deslexic to read. you know if i can get one online for free?

Half.com has a large print (used) Book of Mormon for $0.75.

http://half.ebay.com/cat/buy/prod.cgi?cpidEQ2541623AMPdomain_idEQ1856AMPmeta_idEQ1&aid=1932276&pid=1794852&sid=books_0830902791

I'm sure too that if you asked at your church, they'd try to provide you with a copy.

i dont read the scriptores as much as i should. but its because the small words proove nearly imposible for someone deslexic to read. you know if i can get one online for free?

I'm sure too that if you asked at your church, they'd try to provide you with a copy.

It has been my understanding that Mormon churches are best at that sort of thing. I mean, the free issue or free copy practice seems fairly rooted in Mormons. I think that's cool. :)

By the way, Simon, I WILL reply to your post. It's just been kinda wild hereabouts with school and work, and this conversation is something I wan to devote myself to without distraction, as I have a few questions. Not many, but a few. :)

simon your mormon i am to. i really never wqould have guesed. though i do have to admit i dont read the scriptores as much as i should. but its because the small words proove nearly imposible for someone deslexic to read. you know if i can get one online for free?

I mentioned this before, but the church has online versions of all of the scriptures here: http://scriptures.lds.org/

Since it's online, you can increase the font-size on your browser (in firefox go to View > Text Size > Increase (or use CTRL+[+]), and in IE, use View > Text Size > Largest). You can also listen to the chapter by clicking the Read link at the top of the screen.

As others mentioned, if you're looking for a large-print hard-copy, the church sells large-print versions of the scriptures, also online. If you're looking for a new copy, the economy large print edition triple combination (Item #36074000[=http://www.ldscatalog.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CatalogSearchResultView?searchTerm=36074000&SubmitSearch=Go&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&pageSize=10&beginIndex=0&sType=SimpleSearch&resultTypeValue=2]#36074000) and the economy large print edition Bible (Item #36072000[=http://www.ldscatalog.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CatalogSearchResultView?searchTerm=36072000&SubmitSearch=Go&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&pageSize=10&beginIndex=0&sType=SimpleSearch&resultTypeValue=2]#36072000) are probably what you'd be interested in. The church also sells audiobook versions of the scriptures. You can order them online through http://www.ldscatalog.com or (if funds are an issue) talk to the bishop of your local ward.

Ebay and Half.com may be other options, but I'll admit I've never tried getting my scriptures from there.

Hope that helps. :)

I'm a Christian too and I've tried using various translations of the Bible, but I always end up back in the King James Version. I can't explain it, it just "feels" right.

simon your mormon i am to. i really never wqould have guesed. though i do have to admit i dont read the scriptores as much as i should. but its because the small words proove nearly imposible for someone deslexic to read. you know if i can get one online for free?

I mentioned this before, but the church has online versions of all of the scriptures here: http://scriptures.lds.org/

Since it's online, you can increase the font-size on your browser (in firefox go to View > Text Size > Increase (or use CTRL+[+]), and in IE, use View > Text Size > Largest). You can also listen to the chapter by clicking the Read link at the top of the screen.

As others mentioned, if you're looking for a large-print hard-copy, the church sells large-print versions of the scriptures, also online. If you're looking for a new copy, the economy large print edition triple combination (Item #36074000[=http://www.ldscatalog.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CatalogSearchResultView?searchTerm=36074000&SubmitSearch=Go&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&pageSize=10&beginIndex=0&sType=SimpleSearch&resultTypeValue=2]#36074000) and the economy large print edition Bible (Item #36072000[=http://www.ldscatalog.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CatalogSearchResultView?searchTerm=36072000&SubmitSearch=Go&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&pageSize=10&beginIndex=0&sType=SimpleSearch&resultTypeValue=2]#36072000) are probably what you'd be interested in. The church also sells audiobook versions of the scriptures. You can order them online through http://www.ldscatalog.com or (if funds are an issue) talk to the bishop of your local ward.

Ebay and Half.com may be other options, but I'll admit I've never tried getting my scriptures from there.

Hope that helps. :)

thanks simon that will be a real help.