Challenging Don Bluth's Philosophy

To paraphrase Don Bluth: "Kids can accept anything as long as there is a happy ending."

I couldn't disagree more...In fact, I think it's kinda a harmful stance that's limiting animation's true potential.

First off, let me give this lovely scenario (You can skip this part if you're squeamish): "One day, Charlie's pets were skinned. His mother was murdered. His father was a victim of a drive by shooting. His brother and sisters were kidnapped and never found. His possessions caught on fire. But, he lived happily ever after in his new foster home and will continue to live a happy life. Currently, he's planning to get a Ph.D. in neurophysiology. And he lived happily ever after. The end."

If you chose to skip the previous paragraph, it basically told the tale of a little boy who went through many tragic and life changing events, but he managed to have a happy ending despite all the bad things that happened to him. In the real world, that doesn't always happen.

I have two big complaints about his philosophy, and I'll break it down for you:

Kids can accept anything

If you did read my little tale, you would probably agree with me that the story was ridiculous and that I'm a sick little bastard for thinking of something like that. But, what Don Bluth is saying is that kids can accept ANYTHING, if only they get a happy ending. I believe that the amount of abuse a character can take should be limited to only what is reasonable. I'm no child psychologist, I'm a 20 year old kid who volunteers for a "living", but I may have an idea as to what constitutes reasonable. Let's rewrite my little tale:

"Charlie had a bad day. He lost his pets. He failed his English test. When he got home, he received bad news from his father: His mother past away from cancer."

When you're a kid, you have questions. Questions usually revolve around death, failure, and illness (and let's be honest, sex, but I'm not going into that). Nothing in life is permanent. I believe that kids should learn this fact early (more on this later)....But back to my point, kids should only be shown what they can comprehend and what relates to the questions that they may have regarding life. Going too far is overkill and may confuse and upset the child. If kids are given the gist of life and death, they /usually/ can figure out things such as torture and murderous acts by themselves. Whether I'm reading too far into what Bluth meant when he says that kids can accept anything is debatable, but I believe it can be construed in the way I mentioned and I think it's important to know the difference between showing too much and too little.

If they have a happy ending

This is basically the juice of my argument as I believe it's the most important: The idea of a tragic ending. I dare you to name one children's animated film that has had a tragic ending without resorting to Google or the like. Not too many, huh?

What do I mean by tragic ending, you may ask? I mean an ending where things don't end up in the character's favor. I don't mean Shakespearean tragedy per-se, just an ending where a character doesn't face the end of his journey with happy results.

Let me give you a small example: "Paul the chipmunk one day got separated from his family. He was sent out on an adventure to find his lost family. His adventure is filled with run ins of many different kinds of characters. He had a bond with a frog named June. June sadly didn't make the leap across the cliff. To save June, Paul had to face his fear and leap across the cliff. He sadly couldn't make it and ended up falling to his death."

Call me crazy or insane, but I think a kid can handle a kind of ending like that. It shows sacrifice on behalf of Paul and it shows that you can't succeed in everything you try. It goes back to my earlier point that nothing in life is permanent. Eventually, things will have to end and we will have to accept this fact. Constantly giving children the same happy ending reinforces the point that everything will be okay for our main character at the end of their hardships, which isn't always the case.

liRubs browli Well that was a whole lot of rambling. Keep in mind that this is only my opinion and not supposed to be taken as some kind of revelation. You may think differently, in which case I'd like to hear you.

Have a nice day,

shivermetimbers

Man I was crazy when I wrote this. The TL;DR version is that I believe kids can handle heavy concepts (within reason) and have an unhappy ending. It needs to be executed much better than what I've written, obviously, but I believe it can be done.

Preemptive note here: I don't put much effort into my posts on TV, obviously. Next time I post up an argument, I'll be a little more firmer on my stance.

Honestly I was a little unclear about the point you were trying to make, but it did inspire me to add some thoughts.

First, could any Hollywood studio be convinced that a children’s or family movie with an ending like the one you describe ever be commercially viable? The lead character, who everyone’s been rooting for, falling to his death, The End? And if it did actually get produced, who’d want to see it, once word gets around?

And yet…I’ve seen cases where movies get marketed to kids in a manner that is, at best, deceptive. When “My Girl” first came out, there was a promo that ran on Saturday morning television that emphasized the fun and hijinks the two kids, played by Anna Chlumsky and Macauley Culkin, get into. I had to wonder how many kids and parents alike were deceived into thinking that was the whole movie, and so were totally unprepared for the dramatic themes, not to mention…

(SPOILER ALERT)

…that Mac’s character dies. I have no doubt that some kids handled it just fine, but that’s the sort of thing that most parents who drop off their kids at the cinema for a couple hours, or watch it with them, would want to know beforehand. There was similar criticism for ”Kindergarten Cop” because that was perceived as being kid-friendly by unsuspecting parents who found out later about the level of violence in it.

I guess if there’s any conclusion to be reached, it’s that while some kids might be able to handle the lead character dying at the end, it likely wouldn’t fly with most parents.

Honestly I was a little unclear about the point you were trying to make, but it did inspire me to add some thoughts.

Thing is, when I right these posts, I don't proofread or read over what I wrote down. My mind works differently than yours, I can't easily process an thoughts into writing like you can. It takes about a hundred times more effort for me to get my thoughts into writing than the average Joe. So you get a convoluted mess of sorts. I'm not hear to make excuses, though, so to get to some of your points...

To clear things up for you: I think kids can handle a tragic ending. I'm just kind of sick of seeing the stereotypical happy animated movie ending that we see in films. I believe there's potential out there to make one. It of course would have to be executed properly, no doubt. I brought this up based on a conversation with one of my friends on Skype a few months back and we came up with a scenario that could be considered possible for an unhappy unending. It wasn't the scenario that I wrote, that was just an (bad) example, this one was more thought out and contained elements of sacrifice on behalf of the main character. I agree with you that the main character shouldn't just suddenly fall dead for the sake of a few tears, absolutely not. I'm just saying that it's possible to create a believable scenario where the ending is not to the main character's favor. And like I said, it would have to be executed in a way as to not seem like a hokey ploy to get tears. Sorry if my bad example threw you off, if I could show you the example that my friend and I did, then I would, but that was a looooooonnnnggg time ago.

I actually thought of "My Girl" when I was writing my post, but considered not bringing it up because it wasn't an animated film. I actually wasn't considering marketing when I wrote my post, though I'm sure it would have to be marketed in a way that would indicate that it's a serious children's movie with the theme of sacrifice and selflessness on behalf of the main character.

There's also the idea of a neutral ending. I point to "The Iron Giant" for an example, though it implies that the boy lost his friend robot, it leaves it up to the audience's interpretation as to whether or not they'll get back together again. Not exactly a happy ending where everything is set in stone and peachy keen.

I guess if there’s any conclusion to be reached, it’s that while some kids might be able to handle the lead character dying at the end, it likely wouldn’t fly with most parents.

This is coming from a kid who was allowed to watch Kevin Bacon get an arrow through his throat when he was a toddler, but nevertheless I'm sure others would agree: If parents decide to take their child to a movie, it's THEIR responsibility as the adult to do research into said movie, and to judge for themselves whether or not their child should be seeing it. If a parent wants to deny responsibility and blame the movie and cause a controversy, that's not the movie's fault, that's the parent's fault.

Well in Don Bluth's films I'm familiar with the philosophy as stated isn't quite as harsh as you described it with your example.

To be fair, I don't like excessively dark media. I could rant on for hours about it in fact, especially now that it's become a fad and people feel they need to be excessively dark and gritty (Looking at you George R. R. Martin) to be more marketable.

What I like about Secret of NIMH is that it doesn't talk down to children. This is in fact what I like in all the childrens' moves I like and there's really not many. We get some cute comic relief in Jeremy, but all in all if the movie were set in some fantasy world and with human characters rather than mice and rats, it would be labelled as a wonderful piece of adult fantasy.

I think kids can handle an unhappy ending, but I don't think they'll understand it. From a literary standpoint an unhappy ending is there to give a message, it still offers closure and has a point. Since the child won't understand the point you're making, the unhappy ending just seems cruel.

The thing about dark media now is that it is ALL cheapened by branding it's self as being dark. They do this at the expense of telling a good story and like to just throw low blows at the audience or even using shocking and grotesque imagery and actions to express something as 'gritty.' (Ramsay Snow much, Mr. Martin?)

Would any of Mr. Bluth's movies have benefited from a tragic ending? I certainly don't think so, the tragic ending would've been entirely self-serving.

Beyond that, look at your story from a moral standpoint. Ideally you want to teach your children lessons with children's movies. What is the message of that sad ending? That no matter what someone does they'll never succeed if success wasn't in the cards? Certainly that's true, but such a moral encourages one to never try in the first place.

Now if perhaps our heroic chipmunk had bravely sacrificed himself so others could live or something like that, then it's a different story altogether. Then again as someone who doesn't like dark and tragic subject matter I could be missing the point, but for the most part if there's not a good story leading up to that ending it just seems like it's a sad ending for the sake of a sad ending which is really worse than a cheap happy ending.

My example with the chipmunk and the frog was terrible, like I said, I was kinda crazy when I wrote that. The example my friend and I came up with is much more acceptable and it would slowly, but surely add up to something meaningful and dictate a point and add closure, which my example didn't. I like a good challenge, and I think it's possible to have an ending that's not so happy in a children's animated film. I think you're underestimating children's capacity. They're surrounded by media that's filled with tragedy and there are little tragedies that happen around them and to them all the time. They can surely understand that things don't always go their way in life and that sometimes the main character doesn't always have a happy go lucky ending. I think they'll be able to understand it just fine. It's all about execution of the ending, really.

I don't like completely dark and gritty either, I believe it's important to understand that somethings that adults may perceive as childish are actually good. That's not what I'm talking about, though. I'm not suggesting that a children's movie be dark and gritty for the sake of being dark and gritty.

Would any of Mr. Bluth's movies have benefited from a tragic ending? I certainly don't think so, the tragic ending would've been entirely self-serving.

I can’t believe I didn’t think of it until today (and apparently I wasn't alone) but there was one Bluth film in which the central character dies: All Dogs Go to Heaven. At the time, I admired the fact that, in spite of Charlie’s eventual death being telegraphed almost from the beginning, Bluth didn’t back out and actually had him go to canine afterlife, and though it was treated in rather lighthearted fashion, it was tragic for those characters who’d grown to love him. Honestly I wasn’t aware of Bluth’s “happy ending” philosophy until SMT brought it up, or else I’d forgotten it; but in any case, I don’t recall any great controversy over that ending.

I actually thought of "My Girl" when I was writing my post, but considered not bringing it up because it wasn't an animated film. I actually wasn't considering marketing when I wrote my post, though I'm sure it would have to be marketed in a way that would indicate that it's a serious children's movie with the theme of sacrifice and selflessness on behalf of the main character.

There's also the idea of a neutral ending. I point to "The Iron Giant" for an example, though it implies that the boy lost his friend robot, it leaves it up to the audience's interpretation as to whether or not they'll get back together again. Not exactly a happy ending where everything is set in stone and peachy keen.

Not sure if it means anything, but it's interesting that both of us thought of My Girl in relation to this subject.

The Iron Giant is a great example of one that doesn't have a clear-cut happy ending, and in fact at least one Disney film does the same: The Fox and the Hound. Though the two childhood playmates, Tod and Copper, are on friendlier terms, it's implied that it's something of a standoff, an uneasy peace, and that they most likely won't be able to go back to being best friends.

If parents decide to take their child to a movie, it's THEIR responsibility as the adult to do research into said movie, and to judge for themselves whether or not their child should be seeing it. If a parent wants to deny responsibility and blame the movie and cause a controversy, that's not the movie's fault, that's the parent's fault.

That'd be the ideal way, but some parents simply don't have the time, and they quite reasonably assume that some films will be kid-friendly without having to do a lot (or a little) research. And, yes, some parents are just lazy.

I definitely agree that kids can handle more things than adults give them credit for, and with your point that animation's full potential has been limited in the extreme, owing largely to the stubborn perception, at least in the good old U.S.A., that animation HAS TO BE a medium for children. But that's a whole other discussion.

EDIT:
Another Bluth film worth mentioning is The Land Before Time, which has a happy ending to be sure, but how long can the happiness last, considering—as established in the opening minutes—that the age of the dinosaurs is nearly at an end and that this verdant valley they’ve reached won’t be able to support them much longer. The point is underplayed, but it’s there, and I’m sure there were some kids who were left saying, “But what about…”

I've recently finished playing Dust: An Elysian Tail. It's a game I can recommend to everyone (even if you haven't played a video game before in your life), especially to those who love hand drawn animation as it is absolutely gorgeous. It was made by one person and it deserves all of the support it can get. There's even a few Secret of NIMH references in the game oddly enough.

It's a game that's aimed at children just as much as it is for adults, not unlike SoN. I won't spoil what happens in the game, but needless to say there's the message of sacrifice and that doing your best and trying as hard as you can won't always stop tragedy striking, but it's the journey and the willingness to do the right thing that's most important. That's the kind of message that I meant to convey when I made the topic, I just fumbled.

Anyway, if you own an Xbox 360, this is a must own title. You can download it VIA Xbox Live Arcade for 1600 Microsoft points ($15).

I was such an idiot when I started this topic. Now back on track...

I was actually listening in on a Ted Talk a little while ago that was discussing children's education and how it's killing creativity....Maybe "killing" isn't the best word to describe it, but whatever.

One of the points brought up (if, IF I can remember correctly) was that kids are brought up to believe that error and mistakes are the worst things that can ever happen to them.

Now going back to my discussion on error, I believe that children ought to be allowed to make mistakes without fear of being persecuted because mistakes in themselves are learning experiences. If we expect our children to be perfect all the time, we paint a wrong picture of how the world works. Because they are not going to be perfect all of the time.

Of course when I say mistake, I'm referring to their educational process through school, not to irresponsible behavior. (Irresponsible behavior such as hurting overs deserves to be persecuted)

...But what I was trying to say before is that even though you can give it your hardest, it doesn't mean that there will be a happy ending. Yet we constantly send the message to our children that hard work will always yield a positive response. The protagonist goes on an adventure, works hard, and gets a happy ending. It's a formula that's worn out its welcome.

I'm not saying that all films should have tragic endings or that children couldn't be told life lessons through other narrative means. I'm just saying that children could handle being told that the protagonist who works hard and goes through their journey full of hardships doesn't always win the reward of happiness.

Think about it for awhile.