[OFF-TOPIC] Elements of the Story: Storytelling Techniques

Blast, I can't make a long title D:

This is not really NIMH-related, but it did crop up due to a discussion of David Leemhuis' story "The Search for Jonathan Brisby" (perhaps misquoted/mistitled; based on the interior of the work, it's "The Search for Johnathan Brisby"). Basically what I want to discuss here are techniques used for storytelling. Whenever possible, of course, I would rather see NIMH-related examples, but this is not necessary and is in fact rather constricting: there are more techniques out there than those shown by O'Brien, his daughter, or Don Bluth et al.

So, first discussion: easing the reader into a plotline.

Something that shivermetimbers said in "On the fan-fiction balcony" is (to paraphrase) that the charm in many stories comes from the surprise twist that had absolutely no foreshadowing.

To be honest, I couldn't agree more.

The use of plot twists and unexpected turns in the storyline has long been one of the most effective and entertaining methods of storytelling. At some point in a good story you will find a "But then...", or a point at which new information radically changes the perception of the works' audience. It is effective because of the fact that it comes out of nowhere, that there is no foreshadowing to this radically important event.

"The Search for Johnathan Brisby" is an example of a work that has a pre-established canon, however. When the established canon is shown to be permeated with these twists or the proviso that the audience has to expect the unexpected (such as the Silent Hill series that shivermetimbers was referring to), then this technique of plot twist is not unexpected. However, in our example (and in others) the work is faced with a canon where plot twists of an extreme nature are not expected, the case for "The Search for Johnathan Brisby" being the 180 into almost pure sci-fi territory. I do not believe that this technique of twist is ineffective in other stories, merely that in cases like this where it creates a contradiction for an established canon, there is a definite limit to how extreme it can be. As I said in that thread, I am not opposed to incorporating sci-fi elements into a NIMH story, as both the original and its film counterpart are examples of that rare instance where science fiction and fantasy are both incorporated to a spectacular effect. It is when the balance of the pre-established canon is tilted too far that this becomes more of a hindrance than a help.

So how do we avoid this, then? One way I have already mentioned, and that is to simply mediate the extremity of the twist. Another is to provide a subtle hint to the twist event so that when it comes, it does not seem too extreme; a good example of this would be in the original NIMH book, where the Rats of NIMH are hinted at being strange for wild creatures rather early on, which is then explained by Nicodemus' story. This does not remove the "Wow!" of the twist itself, merely makes it seem as though it is not out of place. A third way is to introduce this element in the beginning and to maintain it throughout the story; sadly this sacrifices the twist itself, but it does open up doors to other effective twists that could be related heavily to said element (e.g. Timmy getting sick is prominent throughout O'Brien's book, but the fact that he tried to get out of bed and could not, and then decided to think important things over, is an example of a twist that is related; YMMV as to how effective this twist is).

So what other ways are there? Discuss! Or, if you feel dead-in-the-water with this specific technique, feel free to start a discussion of another one.

What I think you're trying to say (and you can correct me if my accusations are false) is that you think the idea of aliens in this NIMH universe is inappropriate because no mention of aliens are made in any other NIMH related work. Truth be told, even if he did "ease you into it," you would still think it's absurd.

Oh, sure he gave very little hint that another world would be introduced. All he did to prepare us is give us the clue that Jonathan was alive and with someone with a crazy name.

The amulet is a deus ex machina that was used to give the film more visual flair, its purpose in the plot is already absurd. Where did it come from? Aliens? You argue that he went overboard into this sci-fi world with very little warning that he did so. I argue that that was probably his purpose and that he wanted it to be as unsuspecting and shocking as possible, you simply don't like it and wish it weren't that way. If he were to give subtle hints, it wouldn't be as shocking. You probably still wouldn't be pleased if he did because as you said, he did a complete 180 into sci-fi territory and no amount of easing in is going to make you comfortable with it.

It all comes down to taste and preference in story telling technique. In the fanfiction I'm planning on writing (which you will see in the next decade or so when I give a damn about writing the thing) apes and humans have bonded together and there are even apes holding seats in the United Nations (it takes place in the year 2238, by the way) and the rats of NIMH are arguing on whether or not they should now show themselves to the world. Tell me that isn't absurd and I'll sell you Big Ben for 2 dollars, and that's not even the beginning of the absurd plot points I'm going to put in.

Hmm...since my name was mentioned I guess I better weigh in.

I don't really have more to add other than what I said in my last post in "on the fan-fiction balcony"; I still think I maintained the fantasy elements of the film and did not do a 180 into sci-fi territory as HL believes.

To go even more off-topic, I see someone must be looking forward to "Rise of the Planet of the Apes" this Friday. I was a fan of the original movie series as a kid, despite the GINORMOUS plot holes and inconsistencies (and ever-shrinking budget) from film to film.

Never been a huge Planet of the Apes fan. I just came up with the idea of Shultz being placed in a psychiatric ward after failing to convince people that the Rats of NIMH existed and George and Julie, after being told by their families to keep their damn mouths shut, would take his research over to NASA and use it on space monkeys. Julie would then proceed to mock Shultz: "What kind of biologist am I? The kind that's successful...you silly goose."

I actually came up with that as I was reading the book because that's the kind of sick bastard I am .

:roll:

Being able to accept plot holes is kinda like a hobby of mine, there will probably be like a million plot holes in my fanfiction. I was able to accept and enjoy Gibbs' fanfiction stories because they were well written and emotional, even though I can never see those events happening in the SoN universe. So of course, if you have an emotional and well thought out story to tell, but you have to take liberties to tell it, go for it. It's what we call Alternate Universe Fanfiction.

Never been a huge Planet of the Apes fan.

Oops, my bad thing. XD

I guess me saying I'm not a big Planet of the Apes fan is kinda a lie. I don't worship it like Silent Hill 2 or Fight Club, but it's on par with my level of respect for NIMH.

I saw the movie yesterday and a lot of the neurological stuff reminded me of NIMH. Of course it's a story about animals whose intelligence is boosted to the degree of humans, so it shares that obvious similarity.

It's a good movie and Id recommend it. The ending leaves you wanting more, but since we all know what happens next, it really doesn't matter.

While we're on the subject...a lot of fanfictions have a plot twist that contradict what we know about the source material.

I've already mentioned Gibbs multiple times, so I might as well bring it up again. His big "secret mission" plot twist contradicts the source material heavily and it breaks all of the rules you mentioned in your post.

It was not hinted at in the source material and it is in fact contradictory to the events in the film. Also very little is hinted at in the text beforehand to prepare us for this revelation. You can most certainly argue (and I would agree with you) that he set it up to create tension and suspense in the story and he succeeded. Doing this also allows the whole family to live in Thorn Valley and Mrs. Brisby wouldn't have to worry about growing old. We have to heavily suspend our disbelief in order for it to work, but because it's so well written and it creates a great set up for a story we forgive this.

It's the same thing with this story....it's just that we haven't seen the payoff yet. My concern is that you simply don't like the idea of another world being introduced in the NIMH universe, or that you don't like sci-fi worlds in general.

I've enjoyed his story way more than I thought I would. Kudos to you, now finish it. :)

Mi dispiace for my absence from this thread; I've been rather busy and hadn't the time to form a coherent reply.

It all comes down to taste and preference in story telling technique. In the fanfiction I'm planning on writing (which you will see in the next decade or so when I give a damn about writing the thing) apes and humans have bonded together and there are even apes holding seats in the United Nations (it takes place in the year 2238, by the way) and the rats of NIMH are arguing on whether or not they should now show themselves to the world. Tell me that isn't absurd and I'll sell you Big Ben for 2 dollars, and that's not even the beginning of the absurd plot points I'm going to put in.

You're absolutely right, everything is based on personal preference. It's why my friends and I loathe Twilight and yet I'm the one of the few in my group that feels the same way about Stephen King and his works. Everything is based on personal preference, because everybody has different tastes. Some people like deus ex, or there are those such as yourself that can slip through the plot holes without really caring much. But plot holes, to reply to another one of your posts, are not necessary for AU fictions. In fact, AU fictions are simply another take on the rules that define the original material and characters, etc. I know AU stories that have minimal plot holes, and ones that are full of them.

Another device you mentioned is that of the Deus Ex Machina, and the stone most certainly is that, and was added in simply for the Rule of Cool (a mouse with telekinetic powers granted by a glowing red stone? What do you mean it's not awesome?!). Deus ex machinae can be subtle, though, and done expertly; this does not, however, change the fact that the device itself has little explanation and is there only because the character(s) needing it are incompetent in context and require a boost. When explained properly, the DEM becomes a Chekhov's Gun/Skill; it still functions as a DEM, but with significantly less apprehension and more explanation. It seems useless or superficial at the time but is given some sort of explanation, and later becomes crucial to the resolution of the plot.

In response to the more personal areas of the discussion:

Hmm...I do think that I would be more receptive of 'another world' had it been more subtly introduced. I may have said that the technique was bad, and I apologise if I did because in no way is a sudden twist bad (it's simply very jarring), but my issue doesn't lie in the sci-fi-esque direction the story has taken, more on this sudden turn without much more than a name and a reference to Jonathan being alive. My own writing would never bring Jonathan back from the dead - in this I entirely agree with your opinion - but like you I'm willing to suspend my disbelief in general. Gibbs' work gives Jonathan his own sections almost right from the get-go (correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it was Ch.2 that we first got a Jonathan-centric point of view). I'm not trying to say that one work is better than the other - Leemhuis has yet to finish his work, and I prefer giving full opinions on the finished product simply because I might find things like this, where I have to suspend my disbelief to the end and see if it works properly - but was simply pointing out in my precursory reading that these things brought up some red lights. I like sci-fi worlds, I like fantasy worlds, and I love it when they are combined to a great effect; I think, however, that if a fiction's predecessor is firmly set in a specific genre, then the transition into a cross-genre should be handled very subtly. But again, that's just my opinion; that doesn't mean that Leemhuis' work is bad or anything, it's merely something that sets off some red lights in my head. Different twists cannot, in my opinion, be used indiscriminately for different stories (i.e. the type of twist should be heavily considered based on the type of story, and one type might not work as well as another).

NIMH is a film that doesn't open itself to sequels. It leaves the viewer wanting more and leaves questions unanswered for the viewer to interpret what happens next. It also presents a world filled with discovery and danger. Thus it's a haven for fanfiction writers.

One of the problems of making a sequel to NIMH is the stone. You can do what Gibbs did and simply use it as a deus ex machina, or you can try what Pyrocon did and explain its history.

As what Leemhuis is doing, I can't say it works, but I can't say it doesn't without reading the whole thing. His story contains a lot of deus ex elements. What I mean by this is that things happen conveniently because of the stone. It allows Mrs. Brisby to feel Jonathan, it allows her to guide her to him, it transports them to this new world...... it pretty much does everything in this story and there are no explanations (yet) on why it does this.

There's also the fact that even though this stone comes from another non English-speaking world, it has an English inscription on the back and that the stone magically teleported itself to Brisby with Nicodemus' face shown in it. Again, questions that I hope will be answered with more chapters, which I hope come soon. :wink:

Look, I get the temptation of wanting Jonathan alive in a NIMH sequel. He's the most ambiguous character, yet at the same time the most important character. He has some sort of presence throughout the film and wanting to make the ambiguous non-ambiguous is tempting for fanfiction writers as anything is possible......My favorite NIMH fanfiction is actually one in which Mrs. Brisby finds and reads Jonathan's journal. He's still dead, but alive at the same time and we also get a well written insight into the character. Think about it, you don't need him alive for him to be alive.

Holy crap, that post actually went through! I was so miffed because I thought that the long post I'd written got deleted after re-logging in. But it didn't - yay!

NIMH is a film that doesn't open itself to sequels. It leaves the viewer wanting more and leaves questions unanswered for the viewer to interpret what happens next. It also presents a world filled with discovery and danger. Thus it's a haven for fanfiction writers.

Actually, for that very reason, it does open itself up to sequels. People want to know, and sometimes when they aren't given the info they feel the need to create it, hence the fan-fiction. Whether it leaves itself open to good canon sequels is, I think, the real problem; the solution is entirely up to the people with the money and resources to make an official video. And I'll not talk about that abomination as if it were canon...ligrumbles about character killingli

As per the Stone, I'm more inclined to Procyon's usage; he delved more into its mystique without changing the events of the movie, and still managed to draw in the book in subtle and effective ways.

I'd actually like to hear other opinions on the deus ex machina. It's an important story device, and should be discussed more in-depth.

I meant canon sequels when I wrote that sentence. Of course it's open to fan made sequels, but I doubt that there could be a canon sequel that works to everyone's liking. Ironically, I think NIMH 2 has more of right to be a canon sequel than any of the fanfictions I read. liaccepts boosli

As for the Secret of the Stone.....it was alrightish. I just have a bias against any sort of magical cult because it ruined Silent Hill. I would never consider it canon though, even if it's plot were plausible within the NIMH universe. I don't think an entire sequel should be devoted to figuring out the stone's origin. It is after all just a plot device used to show off pretty animation.

When you read fanfiction, you are reading what the fans believe could/should happen within the universe, not exactly what should actually happen.

As for deus ex machina, it's best when it's used subtly or when it has a point. As in NIMH's case it was to show off pretty animation on screen while showing that a timid mouse has found courage. Cheesy...but fine.

I'll give an example of bad deus ex machina. I just came back from seeing the above-average horror comedy "Fright Night." It was about a vampire terrorizing a Las Vegas suburb. The protagonist is given a stake, that when used against said vampire, will kill him and turn his victims back to normal. This stake was given to him all of a sudden, with no build up, it was just conveniently given to him to make everything normal again. There's no point to it other than to get the lame ending the director wanted. The film was fine up until that point, then they dropped the ball.

So, yeah, you get the point.

One thing about David's story is that it's extremely Mary Sueish. Things happen to the characters VERY conveniently. Mrs. Brisby doesn't have to worry about growing old and die anymore, Matilda's husband was evil against his own will, and so on. Nothing permanently bad happens to the characters, everything seems happy go lucky. It kinda bothers me.

I'm probably the only one who's read his entire story so far, but I would like to see others input on this. It seems like every conflict these characters run into has some sort of happy-go-lucky explanation for what's going on. Nothing can be bad just because, it has to have some contrived and convenient explanation for what's going on.

I'm sure what I've said confuses you, but try and understand it anyway, because I do believe it's a good point.

Edit: He has a strength in writing romance and he wants to make it so that Mrs. Brisby and Johnathan can be together indefinitely. He's doing this so that he can make more sequels with the family together and write even more romance. So, yes, I can see why he did it. Hopefully we can have conflict with out as much of the yuppyness in the sequel.

I dunno if you'll read this...but here goes:

I love stories that have the reader asking questions by presenting information to the reader bit by bit. It's an effective way to keep the audience of your story sucked in.

In David's (Grandpa Leemy's) story, we only initially get presented with the fact that Jonathan is alive and is currently living with some dude with a funny name. The questions of how, where, and why are still up in the air. This is a great hook to keep me reading because I want to know the answers to these questions. The answers come in due time and hopefully more questions will follow with each revelation until the conclusion. The conclusion is where everything gets wrapped up. Some questions might still be left unanswered (in fact Grandpa Leemy is aware of this, as he mentions the unanswered questions in chapter 23). In fact, it's best not to answer every question as long as the conclusion is satisfying (which in Grandpa Leemy's story it is). It's sometimes good to leave some things ambiguous, as was the case with "The Secret of NIMH."

Imagine if Grandpa Leemy's story "eased you into it." What if somewhere in between chapters 1-9 he basically gave away the big revelation that Johnathan was taken to another world just so you can be better prepared to "deal with it" when Mrs. Brisby finally gets there? Keep in mind that the beginning portion of the story is focused on Mrs. Brisby's confusion and flight to figure out the impressions of Johnathan that she's been receiving. If he were to insert a few scenes with Johnathan that basically gave away the fact that he was sent away from home by the amulet to another world,it would take away the sense of mystery from the story that compelled me to keep reading it; not to mention the story would lose focus as the story constantly switched from Mrs. Brisby to Johnathan. The questions of how, where, and why would've already been answered early on, which would in turn make the chapters in which Mrs. Brisby gets answers to these questions anti climatic and the reader would just be waiting for her to figure it out herself.

The only reason I can see that you would be against this style of storytelling is that you think the other world angle is going too far from the comfort zone of canon. My reply to that is that this is fanfiction and it's good that writers, like David, are expanding on it and adding creative touches. Remember, fanfiction is outside of canon. Do we sacrifice good storytelling techniques so that the reader can better relate the fanfiction to the canonical source? I say no, but that's just me.

Very cogent analysis, Li'l Dude! Looks like you nailed what I was trying to do. I kept Johnathan/Aphonjal largely out of sight until he and Gwinthrayle rescued our heroes, for the reasons you stated, though admittedly I wasn't exactly bending over backwards keeping the identity of Gwinthrayle's friend a mystery.

Time to beat on a dead horse!


Here's the thing about storytelling: It has no rules. There's no law stating that if you're writing fanfiction or anything that centers around a established canon you can't add in a world of your own or take drastic turns in setting and tone. I like what David did, it was a creative twist using a plot device. You can dislike certain aspects of the story, but to say that something with an established canon can never take a turn in setting and tone is something I can't agree with. Once you use the word "limit" in regards to storytelling, you're contradicting the very nature of storytelling: There are no limits. There is no limit to how "extreme" a plot twist can be and you shouldn't be placing arbitrary rules on storytelling techniques. Saying David's story can't have an extreme plot twists while other stories can and reasoning it with the fact that David's story has an established canon behind it and therefore more "unexpected" isn't fair.

Bottom line: You shouldn't expect the unexpected and we shouldn't place arbitrary limits on the NIMH universe or how we tell our stories. As I stated before, David's method of storytelling is there for a reason. It's to keep us guessing without the need of "subtle hints" to help us make it seem that the twist is not "out of place." And like I said, it's all personal preference, I thought it was very effective.

Time to beat on a dead horse!

Cue the "whickering" sound effect:

It's alive! :D

Here's the thing about storytelling: It has no rules. There's no law stating that if you're writing fanfiction or anything that centers around a established canon you can't add in a world of your own or take drastic turns in setting and tone. I like what David did, it was a creative twist using a plot device. You can dislike certain aspects of the story, but to say that something with an established canon can never take a turn in setting and tone is something I can't agree with. Once you use the word "limit" in regards to storytelling, you're contradicting the very nature of storytelling: There are no limits. There is no limit to how "extreme" a plot twist can be and you shouldn't be placing arbitrary rules on storytelling techniques. Saying David's story can't have an extreme plot twists while other stories can and reasoning it with the fact that David's story has an established canon behind it and therefore more "unexpected" isn't fair.

Bottom line: You shouldn't expect the unexpected and we shouldn't place arbitrary limits on the NIMH universe or how we tell our stories. As I stated before, David's method of storytelling is there for a reason. It's to keep us guessing without the need of "subtle hints" to help us make it seem that the twist is not "out of place." And like I said, it's all personal preference, I thought it was very effective.

Well said, Thomas. Way back when I wrote my first draft of "Search" I honestly felt that the elements I was adding to the canon were a fairly logical extention of it, since there was relatively little that was established, especially if you only went by the film and not the book. Where did the Stone come from? Why not an extradimensional origin? Could there be an out for Johnathan's survival, since his supposed death wasn't definitely stated to be witnessed by anyone? And on and on. At the time, it all seemed to fall into place naturally.